Perfect, just want to add that this isn't the US all alone, it happens worldwide. At the very end everyone is tricked, the white, gray and black hats as well as the creators, the maintenace staff and watchdogs of the security system. Only fools believe that not everthing is saved and stored for later use. Doctrine and Dogma like in religion. There're 3 ways to go: Don't care about it, educate yourself on possibilities to secure your privacy for a while (that's the reason for 'strong crypto') or avoid the net forever. --Michael 31.10.2012 22:12 John Young :

Under the decades-old five-party surveillance agreement -- US, UK, CA, AU and NZ, also known as Echelon -- the nations share information and swap staff. They also spy on each other's citizens when barred from doing so directly.

The tricky part is if an temporary NSA staff member in CA is sitting next to a CA member spying on US citizens (same for the roles swapped) is there a literal firewall between the two's computers as well as physically between the staff, or is that handled by lawyers waving magic wands, as do the CIA's lawyers finger a drone target.

The other tricky part is what is called "de minimus" spying on citizens where if a signal of a banned target is "inadvertently" acquired how thoroughly is the signal quashed. One version says that the spying agency archives the signal, indefinitely, and does not distribute to customers (unless winked by lawyers), but is everready to retrieve the signal should circumstances and secret presidential orders demand as with the EFF/ATT/NSA affair.

Utah Data Center is reportedly being built to store virtually unlimited amounts of data and signal in the expectation that everything may become useful at some point, with newly born algorithms sifting for overlooked needles.

In this sense, it is reasonable to assume that Echelon has been superceded by secret laws allowing the spies to do whatever is needed to spy their citizens and anybody else -- leaving open-ended what "needed" means to avoid another Pearl Harbor, OMG!

Perpetual war justifies this full-dominance pan-survellience, as recently reported in WaPo with respect to drones and the spying acquiring citizen targets, including those of the five-parties who foolishly question authority with the expectation that freedom of expression is inviolable.

Nothing in this is new: nations have been doing this since nationhood was invented to delude citizens into believing royal secrecy and greed was over not insitutionalized in the world's spying machines, aka, telecommunications, Internet, Tor, encryption, anonymizers, WOT, human rights initiatives, cyber-freedom fighting.

One way to de minimizing yourself is to work for the spies, so the recruiters promise, however, only later do you learn about how they spy on insiders -- for life, using the tried and true means and methods of ex-spies sent out to join the outsiders with tales of despicable spyng by methods intendd to deflect deeper inquiry.

At 03:59 PM 10/31/2012, you wrote:

...

----- Forwarded message from John Adams -----

From: John Adams Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:37:52 -0700 To: andy lam Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" Subject: Re: NSA and the exchanges

Allegedly? No, definately.

https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying

https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/att/presskit/ATT_onepager.pdf

-j

On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:25 AM, andy lam wrote:

...

Anyone knows if there's a way to find out how involved NSA monitors 151 front street at Toronto? NSA allegedly monitors data centres in the US, but does it have the same influence at a building sitting in its neighbor's soil?

There's something on the web like www.ixmaps.ca that tries to piece it together. but not sure how helpful the information on there really is?

feedback welcome.

----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE