Re: Forced Oaths to Pieces of Cloth
At 6:55 AM -0800 2/9/03, Sunder wrote:
And also freedom of religion. Forcing someone to say "Under God" for example.
Back in the dark ages (the 1950s, and don't anyone get nostalgic for them), when the phrase "under god" was added to the pledge, I was a student in school. From what they had taught me, I knew then that this addition violated the establishment of religion clause. The solution I devised was to simply remain silent when this phrase was said. Unfortunately having started to question the relation between the pledge and the ideals of the country, I started to wonder why I was pledging to the flag, instead of the country. So over the years, I have a somewhat edited version (removed parts in brackets): I pledge allegiance to [the flag of] the United States of America [and to the republic for which it stands], one nation [under god], indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Except for the fact that one should not trust pledges that are made under coercion, I am reasonably comfortable with this edited version. It expresses the ideal nation that I wish the United States would become. Cheers - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Due process for all | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | used to be the Ameican | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz@pwpconsult.com | way. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 10:57 AM, Bill Frantz wrote:
At 6:55 AM -0800 2/9/03, Sunder wrote:
And also freedom of religion. Forcing someone to say "Under God" for example.
Back in the dark ages (the 1950s, and don't anyone get nostalgic for them), when the phrase "under god" was added to the pledge, I was a student in school. From what they had taught me, I knew then that this addition violated the establishment of religion clause. The solution I devised was to simply remain silent when this phrase was said.
During the possibly more radical 60s, some of us uttered "under Satan" during this sequence. One of my friends got a trip to the Principal's office for this, where he explained that he believed in Satan and that God was just a pretender, and if the Principal could demonstrate that the U.S. officially recognizes one deity over another he would reconsider.
Unfortunately having started to question the relation between the pledge and the ideals of the country, I started to wonder why I was pledging to the flag, instead of the country. So over the years, I have a somewhat edited version (removed parts in brackets):
I don't "pledge" to either a flag or a country. I just live here. And this is where the stuff I own is located. All I ask of government is that they stay out of my way. --Tim May
At 11:34 AM 2/9/2003 -0800, Tim May wrote:
On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 10:57 AM, Bill Frantz wrote: Unfortunately having started to question the relation between the pledge
and the ideals of the country, I started to wonder why I was pledging to the flag, instead of the country. So over the years, I have a somewhat edited version (removed parts in brackets):
I don't "pledge" to either a flag or a country. I just live here. And this is where the stuff I own is located. All I ask of government is that they stay out of my way.
I think parents should teach their children that they should condition the recital of the pledge to when those elected to office are routinely held accountable to breaches of the oath of office. steve
participants (3)
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Bill Frantz -
Steve Schear -
Tim May