Asymmetric whined:
Last I checked the remailers allowed return mail to be sent through them, to the owner of the anonymous account.. isn't that the point? It's easy enough to forge the email header that I can't believe they exist just to totally isolate anyone from the responses.. how would someone using a remailer even join the list (to receive messages) if that was the point?
Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck off the list.
At 10:24 09/19/2000 -0500, Anonymous Coward vomited:
Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck off the list.
Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO let you reply to the originator. In case you're just a bit wet behind the ears yet and hadn't heard, a while back there was a big problem with one of them when the government ordered them to release their database mapping the pseudonyms back to the originators. Clueless? Far from it. How about this.. you shut your own ignorant ass before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have, and try and fucking consider for one second how you manage to sort through a hundred fucking spam messages a day sent to this list, and yet you apparently don't have the mental facility to delete my own messages if you find them so useless. It's pretty simple for you to add me to the killfile, why don't you do it? I could personally give a shit if you never read anything more I have to say. Have fun filtering the spam. -------signature file------- PGP Key Fingerprint: 446B 7718 B219 9F1E 43DD 8E4A 6BE9 D739 CCC5 7FD7 "I don't think [Linux] will be very successful in the long run." "My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse." -Ken Thompson, Interview May 1999. http://www.freebsd.org FreeBSD - The Power to Serve http://www.rfnj.org Radio Free New Jersey - 395 streams - 96kbps @ 44.1khz
At 12:43 -0400 9/19/00, Asymmetric wrote:
Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO let you reply to the originator. In case you're just a bit wet behind the ears yet and hadn't heard, a while back there was a big problem with one of them when the government ordered them to release their database mapping the pseudonyms back to the originators.
Oh? Name one please. After all, it would sort of defeat the purpose... As to your comment about having a database mapping pseudonyms to names, if one of those exists for a given remailer, it's not an ananymous remailer. I certainly hope none of the remailers in use by users here do such things. -- Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott <mailto:kelliott@mac.com> ICQ#23758827 _______________________________________________________________________________ "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas
Perhaps the penet remailer, which shut down in 9/96, is the one being referred to. See http://www.penet.fi. If memory serves, it was by far the most popular (pseudo|ano)nymous of the time. -Brian On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote:
At 12:43 -0400 9/19/00, Asymmetric wrote:
Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO let you reply to the originator. In case you're just a bit wet behind the ears yet and hadn't heard, a while back there was a big problem with one of them when the government ordered them to release their database mapping the pseudonyms back to the originators.
Oh? Name one please. After all, it would sort of defeat the purpose... As to your comment about having a database mapping pseudonyms to names, if one of those exists for a given remailer, it's not an ananymous remailer. I certainly hope none of the remailers in use by users here do such things.
-- bmm@minder.net 1024/8C7C4DE9
At 13:43 -0400 9/19/00, BMM wrote:
Perhaps the penet remailer, which shut down in 9/96, is the one being referred to. See http://www.penet.fi. If memory serves, it was by far the most popular (pseudo|ano)nymous of the time.
And it was because of that very database it was shutdown. Even so Asymmetric needs to get a clue and quit whining about issue that have been debated here more time that I can count (though I have been considering running some statistical analysis against the archives to see what kind of pattern there is to these silly posts- I'm thinking there as sort of odd wave pattern to it with the peaks every 2 months) -- Kevin "The Cubbie" Elliott <mailto:kelliott@mac.com> ICQ#23758827 _______________________________________________________________________________ "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air--however slight--lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." -- Justice William O. Douglas
On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, Kevin Elliott wrote:
Oh? Name one please. After all, it would sort of defeat the purpose...
A normal ISP account accessed through ZKS (for example), where the 'normal' account is blinded (give 'em bogus data, just make sure the MO's get there on time) through some mechanism. One could lie, I've never been asked for ID when setting up an account if I paid with cash to start it. If these new 'anonymous' credit cards work out this might be a good way to pay. What purpose is that? To be anonymous does not imply that return traffic is prohibited. All that is required is a mechanism to 'hide' the 'anonymous <> known' database. In addition, accessing the 'known' account via transient and real-time (e.g. ZKS) anonymous accounts will provide an additional layer of mix. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 12:43 PM -0400 9/19/00, Asymmetric wrote:
At 10:24 09/19/2000 -0500, Anonymous Coward vomited:
Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck off the list.
Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO let you reply to the originator. In case you're just a bit wet behind the ears yet and hadn't heard, a while back there was a big problem with one of them when the government ordered them to release their database mapping the pseudonyms back to the originators.
You're way behind the times. Julf's system has been down for several years. A few Cypherpunks-style remailers support reply blocks, but very few. And if a reply block of some sort is not in the original message, it's of course hopeless. There were no such reply blocks in the messages cited here.
Clueless? Far from it.
How about this.. you shut your own ignorant ass before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have, and try and fucking consider for one second how you manage to sort through a hundred fucking spam messages a day sent to this list,
1. For starters, there are not a "hundred" spam messages a day. At the peak, when some yahoo (TM, The Yahoo Corporation) subscribed the toad address to many other lists, there were perhaps 50 such messages a day for a few days. 2. Being that the toad.com address was not to be the long term list address (Gilmore told us to find other host machines), I divert all toad.com traffic into its own folder. Which I sometimes look at, scan, but sometimes just delete en masse. This cuts out about 80% of all commercial messages, as near as I can tell. 3. Determining which remaining messages are spam is relatively easy. "THIS IS YOUR CHANCE TO BECOME WEALTHY!" and "Printer Supplies CHEAP" sort of gives it all away. 4. Filters. 5. There are compelling reasons to allow non-subscribed addresses. These points have been covered in hundreds of posts in dozens of threads over several years. Consult the archives. I've yet to see "Asymmetric <all@biosys.net>" post any meaningful or interesting articles, so I expect he's just another clueless newbie who's stumbled onto our list and now wants to remake it. Typical.
and yet you apparently don't have the mental facility to delete my own messages if you find them so useless. It's pretty simple for you to add me to the killfile, why don't you do it? I could personally give a shit if you never read anything more I have to say. Have fun filtering the spam.
Your wish is my command. * P L O N K * --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
At 10:24 09/19/2000 -0500, Anonymous Coward vomited:
Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck off the list.
Actually asshole, there are plenty of anonymous remailers that DO let you reply to the originator. In case you're just a bit wet behind the ears yet and hadn't
No, there are not. If it allows *ANY* back trace, it's not anonymous.
heard, a while back there was a big problem with one of them when the government ordered them to release their database mapping the pseudonyms back to the originators.
Clueless? Far from it.
No, not far. What you are refereing to are "pseudonymous" remailers.
How about this.. you shut your own ignorant ass before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have, and try and fucking consider for one second how you manage to sort through a hundred fucking spam messages a day sent to this list, and yet you apparently don't have the mental facility to delete my own messages if you find them so useless. It's pretty simple for you to add me to the killfile, why don't you do it? I could personally give a shit if you never read anything more I have to say. Have fun filtering the spam.
I think this should stand on it's own don't you? -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural
On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, petro wrote:
If it allows *ANY* back trace, it's not anonymous.
That's not necessarily true. I believe both onion routers and ZKS both provide this (at least in principle). I also believe there is something in ZKS about their mixing being secure against themselves...? ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
I said:
On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, petro wrote:
If it allows *ANY* back trace, it's not anonymous.
That's not necessarily true. I believe both onion routers and ZKS both provide this (at least in principle).
I also believe there is something in ZKS about their mixing being secure against themselves...?
The key word in that sentence was "trace", meaning just that--a trace. In the pseudononymous remailers there is a back trace to follow. With encrypted reply blocks, we *assume* that back tracing is well nigh impossible--and with an appropriate end-point (say the final hop is to a mail->news gateway) is pretty much dead certain to be fully anonymous. I haven't looked at ZKS stuff yet, since they don't have a Macintosh version, and I don't have Linux installed at home any more. (Only OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Solaris, MacOS 9 and X. I think that's enough for now), and I really don't feel that I'm qualified to judge the onion routing stuff. Well, Ok, I'm probably not qualified to judge the ZKS stuff either. Either way, if the ability to map email address to meat space identity is less than very, very hard for a government to do *technically* then it really isn't anonymous. -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1st Inaugural
On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, petro wrote:
The key word in that sentence was "trace", meaning just that--a trace. In the pseudononymous remailers there is a back trace to follow.
Not if you do it right. Hell, forge your source header on sends (as a starter, there are lots more ways to do this).
Either way, if the ability to map email address to meat space identity is less than very, very hard for a government to do *technically* then it really isn't anonymous.
Agreed. I'd say it isn't anonymous at all, in fact. It's fortunate the TCP/IP and related protocols are so sloppy and easy to munge. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 19 Sep 2000, No User wrote:
Hey, Retardo -- when did you ever check? If you had, you'd know that you can't reply to anon remailers. Try replying to this, you clueless shit. Now shut the fuck up about this bullshit, we're all tired of the subject, and if you can't be bothered to check the archives, get the fuck off the list.
Actualy you can't reply to SOME kinds of anonymous remailers. There are persistent anonymous accounts that can be two-way. YOU just don't happen to use one. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (7)
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Asymmetric -
BMM -
Jim Choate -
Kevin Elliott -
No User -
petro -
Tim May