-- On 14 Sep 2001, at 10:57, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
James - I find your statements incredible. America is being attacked for being rich and free? I don't think so
If these people are arabs - and i still don't have any proof of that - then we can assume they blew up the WTC in protest of americas support of terror and antidemocratic institutions - i.e. the palestinian israel problems.
Those terrorists origins that have been reported so far come from parts of the arab world that are very far away from Israel -- and also far away from the oil.
Don't forget James - if in fact Bin Landen is involved in this then the facts remain that the US Government sponsored and assisted him during the Russian occupation of afganistan.
No the US government did not, though it surely would have had he showed any concern about Afghanistan earlier. Bin Laden was entirely untroubled by godless communists conquering, ruling, and terrorizing a muslim country. Bin Laden and the Taliban showed their faces long after the real holy warriors, people who do not make holy war on women and children, had sent the commies packing. Bin Laden hates freedom, the freedom which leads to the US culturally dominating the middle east. He does not worry much about foreign military domination. The Soviet Union was a mere military threat, which did not endanger the souls of muslims, only their freedom and property. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG DEJ5rgW8IcZ8JDlNeH+IgJOaekLOQXfOGH3rPjN8 4Na1wToW+otgrI6/UiTJjECa2nTf2XyUK425cXn5q
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
-- On 14 Sep 2001, at 10:57, !Dr. Joe Baptista wrote:
James - I find your statements incredible. America is being attacked for being rich and free? I don't think so
If these people are arabs - and i still don't have any proof of that - then we can assume they blew up the WTC in protest of americas support of terror and antidemocratic institutions - i.e. the palestinian israel problems.
Those terrorists origins that have been reported so far come from parts of the arab world that are very far away from Israel -- and also far away from the oil.
Which is an irrelevant point for both of your positions. The conflict is one of fundamental belief and past actions. It crosses national boundaries. To say (as James is implying) that Pakistani's don't talk to both Afghani's and say Syria is simply irresponsible, as well as wrong.
Don't forget James - if in fact Bin Landen is involved in this then the facts remain that the US Government sponsored and assisted him during the Russian occupation of afganistan.
No the US government did not, though it surely would have had he showed any concern about Afghanistan earlier.
He did, he fought during the Russian invasion (I've sent a URL to a reference seperately). It's almost certain he at some point used US supplied arms.
Bin Laden hates freedom,
No, he just uses a different incompatible definition than you. For example one of his complaints is that he is not given the freedom to move the godless (eg US forces) out of the holy lands of Syria (eg Mecca and Medina). One solution, only send Muslim US service men. You got any idea how much good will something like that would buy?...Priceless -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Don't forget James - if in fact Bin Landen is involved in this then the facts remain that the US Government sponsored and assisted him during the Russian occupation of afganistan.
James A. Donald:
No the US government did not, though it surely would have had he showed any concern about Afghanistan earlier.
On 15 Sep 2001, at 10:37, Jim Choate wrote:
He did, he fought during the Russian invasion (I've sent a URL to a reference seperately). It's almost certain he at some point used US supplied arms.
I stand corrected. James A. Donald:
Bin Laden hates freedom,
Jim Choate:
No, he just uses a different incompatible definition than you. For example one of his complaints is that he is not given the freedom to move the godless (eg US forces) out of the holy lands of Syria (eg Mecca and Medina).
There are no US forces in the holy lands of Syria. Another of his complaints is the spread of universalist western values in Arab states. In this, he is not objecting to the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem, but to the western enlightenment. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG JevpgqHN59H4vK1PVzERB9RHRgs2iwrcyM4p1tvx 4s9viI97WRHpZtj9dGQbHBeAn4JemTsvUEwrusze0
<snippy>
Jim Choate:
No, he just uses a different incompatible definition than you. For example one of his complaints is that he is not given the freedom to move the godless (eg US forces) out of the holy lands of Syria (eg Mecca and Medina).
Hate to bud in, but Mecca and Medina are in Saudi Arabia, not Syria. Syria doesn't have any sites considered holy by Muslims. Elyn
There are no US forces in the holy lands of Syria.
Another of his complaints is the spread of universalist western values in Arab states. In this, he is not objecting to the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem, but to the western enlightenment.
--digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG JevpgqHN59H4vK1PVzERB9RHRgs2iwrcyM4p1tvx 4s9viI97WRHpZtj9dGQbHBeAn4JemTsvUEwrusze0
On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Elyn Wollensky wrote:
Hate to bud in, but Mecca and Medina are in Saudi Arabia, not Syria.
And I should know that since OBL is from Saudia Arabia...sorry. Don't know why I swapped those two...the point will stand much better if the right country is used :) -- ____________________________________________________________________ Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. George Santyana The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
Don't forget James - if in fact Bin Landen is involved in this then the facts remain that the US Government sponsored and assisted him during the Russian occupation of afganistan.
No the US government did not, though it surely would have had he showed any concern about Afghanistan earlier. Bin Laden was entirely untroubled by godless communists conquering, ruling, and terrorizing a muslim country. Bin Laden and the Taliban showed their faces long after the real holy warriors, people who do not make holy war on women and children, had sent the commies packing.
It seems you have alot to say - unfortunately no knowledge of what you are talking about. As I made clear to Declan - I was there from the beginning of the Soviet invasion. I was there when the americans began active sponsorship of the various mujahadin - including our evacuation of children maimed by the soviets. An evacuation which was mainly supported by the US military. Ben Laden was in fact there at the begining and he was actively supported by the US Military. They were the best of friends at the time. The support was in weapons and included strategic assistance against the soviet red army.
Bin Laden hates freedom, the freedom which leads to the US culturally dominating the middle east. He does not worry much about foreign military domination. The Soviet Union was a mere military threat, which did not endanger the souls of muslims, only their freedom and property.
Laden does not hate freedom - he was a "freedom fighter" and has an excellent reputation in the arab world as being a freedom fighter. Your military analysis of the Soviets is also out to lunch. The soviets expended a considerable number of military resources and were rewarded with lots of body bags in return for their efforts. Nikolai Kovalyov, the former head of the Russian FSB security service, has just warned the US that an attack on Afghanistan would fail to capture Osama bin Laden, and would backfire on the US. "In Afghanistan's mountainous terrain it takes a trainload of explosives to destroy three militants," he said. "The chance of hitting bin Laden is zero." So in short James - if the U.S. invades - get the body bags ready. I find it insulting James that you would argue from an ignorant position and just say things off the top of your head without any idea of the consequences involved. As I have said before, the only way to win a war in afganistan is to nuke it. And I predict that will bring the nukes to american soil - if they are not there already. This is a serious situation james. Alot of boys are going to die as a result of this invasion and it's ignorant people like yourself who fuel the fires of victory which some day like vietnam will end up bringing shame to the american public. This is not a game james - this is reality. A harsh reality that if ignored will result in more pain and suffering in america. regards joe -- The dot.GOD Registry, Limited http://www.dot-god.com/
participants (4)
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baptista＠pccf.net -
Elyn Wollensky -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
Jim Choate