On Saturday 29 December 2001 05:00 pm, Faustine wrote:

Hm, whatever works, I guess. Sheer stealth isn't as much a factor for me as is accuracy, reliability and being able to avoid the "woman with a peashooter" image. All rhetoric aside (but with all that in mind) I've actually been thinking of getting a 9mm, something along the lines of a Glock 26, a Kahr P9 or maybe a Sig-Sauer P239. Any thoughts?

I have a Glock M17 and M21. They are both extremely accurate and reliable. Glocks are serious gun fighter's weapons because they have no extra bells and whistles like external safeties and hammer decockers. They also don't have different trigger pulls between the first shot and the following shots. When I attended Front Sight half the instructors carried Glock M21s and the other half carried M1911 clones. Because they have no thumb safety, Glocks need to be carried in holster that covers the tigger (of course that is best for all other makes also). I comfortably carry my M21 all day long in an inside the pants holster on my strong side hip. With this carry I have never been asked to display my CHL. When George W. was governor I interviewed him at an event in a park, and none of the 30 or 40 cops or 10 or 12 body guards spotted it. I suggest that you consider a .40 instead of a 9mm. You should always carry the largest gun in the in the biggest caliber you can control and conceal. The bigger the gun the easier and faster it is to shoot accurately. The bigger the caliber the more stopping power. The reason the US military switched to .45 caliber handguns is becuause .38 caliber handguns were so ineffective against the Moros in the Phillipines. Since 9mm is .36 caliber, the military has basicially returned to a caliber proven to be not up to the task. Glock offers .40 in each of the frame sizes it offers 9mm in. That being said, a .22 in your pocket beats a .45 you left at home any day. I carry a North American Arms five shot mini revolver in my front pocket. These little guns are not much bigger than a pocket knife. They are inexpensive yet they are extremely well made and come with a life time warranty. They are fun to shoot and I have fired several thousand rounds through mine. It takes a lot of practice to hit a soda can six feet away but it would be a whole lot better than nothing at point blank range. David Neilson

On Saturday, December 29, 2001, at 03:00 PM, Faustine wrote:

Hm, whatever works, I guess. Sheer stealth isn't as much a factor for me as is accuracy, reliability and being able to avoid the "woman with a peashooter" image. All rhetoric aside (but with all that in mind) I've actually been thinking of getting a 9mm, something along the lines of a Glock 26, a Kahr P9 or maybe a Sig-Sauer P239. Any thoughts?

Well, I have nearly all of these. Not the MicroGlock, but the others. Here are my opinions: * Kahr K40, a slightly larger .40 S&W variant of the 9mm version. I like this the most of all of my small handguns. Stainless steel (*), heavy enough to aid accuracy for follow-up shots, double action only (meaning nothing to think about, nothing to worry about with de-cocking). Limited to 6 rounds (5 in the mag, 1 in the pipe). I bought mine slightly used for $450, with 6 mags total. It also has night sights. The 9mm version is probably just as nice a version, and holds one more round. There are also smaller variants, with names like "Micro K9," or somesuch. Some of them are too small in my hand. The K40 fits my hand like a glove: small, but not too small, flat, and _dense_. (* I've heard some claim that stainless steel is not a good idea, as it glints in the dark. Perhaps, but this seems like a second-order effect for any real use. It is also possible to get it in blackened stainless, as the SIGs are commonly in.) * SIG P239, also in .40 S&W. Like my 229 (bigger, 15 rounds), it shoots very well and is flat and concealable. The operation is double action on the first pull, single action on subsequent pulls. After the last shot, the decocker must be used to lower the hammer. (I think this is a little confusing for newcomers, and could cause accidents.) I bought mine used for $450, a range rental (with mild range rental loads) with almost no visible wear. * H&K P7, the famous "squeeze-cocker." I had wanted one of these since reading about them in 1980, so when H&K was selling a bunch of reworked and remarket P7s at a good price ($550 or so), I bought one. Very elegant, very unusual. Mine is in 9mm. Very safe, but takes a bit of getting used to. * I have one Glock, a 1986-vintage Model 17, the first ones they imported into the U.S. 9mm, 17-18 shots. It does the job, is safe, and is a reliable standby. Many people swear by them. A Glock 19 is slightly smaller. And then there are the aforementioned Model 26s and 27s (.40, I recall). The Glock 26 would probably be a good choice for a woman, due to the smaller hands most women have. 9mm is more than adequate, especially when loaded with something like Hydra-Shok or Golden Saber or the like. I like my Kahr, followed by my H&K P7, followed by my SIGs. (I also have a full-sized H&K USP .45, and other handguns, of course.) --Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler

At 2:53 PM -0800 12/30/01, Tim May wrote:

* SIG P239, also in .40 S&W. Like my 229 (bigger, 15 rounds), it shoots very well and is flat and concealable. The operation is double action on the first pull, single action on subsequent pulls. After the last shot, the decocker must be used to lower the hammer. (I think this is a little confusing for newcomers, and could cause accidents.) I bought mine used for $450, a range rental (with mild range rental loads) with almost no visible wear.

I found the P239 not quite as well balanced as either my P226 or P228, and I can conceal either practically as well as the smaller P239.

* H&K P7, the famous "squeeze-cocker." I had wanted one of these since reading about them in 1980, so when H&K was selling a bunch of reworked and remarket P7s at a good price ($550 or so), I bought one. Very elegant, very unusual. Mine is in 9mm. Very safe, but takes a bit of getting used to.

Click, clack is how I describe the P7. I wouldn't want to reveal my position to say a burglar with such a pistol- Any of the other pistols mentioned along with other conventional DA/SA pistols seem to be a better choice.

* I have one Glock, a 1986-vintage Model 17, the first ones they imported into the U.S. 9mm, 17-18 shots. It does the job, is safe, and is a reliable standby. Many people swear by them. A Glock 19 is slightly smaller. And then there are the aforementioned Model 26s and 27s (.40, I recall).

Keep in mind that Glocks, while excellent, reliable and accurate do lead the pack in accidental discharges, even among "trained" police. I'd not recommend the Glock to a beginner or to someone who wouldn't put in the necessary practice.

I like my Kahr, followed by my H&K P7, followed by my SIGs.

(I also have a full-sized H&K USP .45, and other handguns, of course.)

The Kahr's are excellent firearms- Especially if your primary purpose is to conceal it. However as a general purpose pistol a higher magazine capacity model with better longer range accuracy is better- Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************

At 2:01 AM -0600 12/31/01, Black Unicorn wrote:

You can decock the pistol silently by disengaging the squeeze cock mechanism under the trigger guard and flush with the depressed squeeze-cocker with the thumb on your free hand and slowly releasing pressure on the cocker. It's pretty easy to engage the cocker silently as well, but why bother? I consider it like a set trigger. It only gets cocked when the target is acquired, identified and in the sights anyhow.

Have you experimented with doing that drill under stress or simulating a hand injury? I think you'll find the design lacking.

It loves being dirty and will shoot on and on regardless of what its been through. (Fluted chamber helps here).

You bring up one of my other objections to the design- The fluted chamber is tough on the brass. If you don't reload it isn't a problem however, but the fluting puts striations on the brass that weakens it for subsequent use. I've heard that certain loads (Silvertips) foul up the gas system on the P7 quicker than other designs. If the P7 works and if your particular gun works for you and your happy with it that's great. Personally I'd stack up my Sig226 or Beretta 92FS against the P7 anytime. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************

On Sunday, December 30, 2001, at 02:53 PM, Tim May wrote:

* H&K P7, the famous "squeeze-cocker." I had wanted one of these since reading about them in 1980, so when H&K was selling a bunch of reworked and remarket P7s at a good price ($550 or so), I bought one. Very elegant, very unusual. Mine is in 9mm. Very safe, but takes a bit of getting used to.

It also takes some thinking about to transition out of. The squeeze cocker also acts as the slide release release, so you get real used to just squeezing and going.

The Glock 26 would probably be a good choice for a woman, due to the smaller hands most women have. 9mm is more than adequate, especially when loaded with something like Hydra-Shok or Golden Saber or the like.

My wife, who has small hands, has a CZ75, which is a wonderful mid-sized pistol. They are well made, reliable, and fairly inexpensive.

I like my Kahr, followed by my H&K P7, followed by my SIGs.

I didn't much care for the Kahr I fired, the trigger was really stiff, and the recoil was a lot sharper. Of course, this was on one of their smaller products.

(I also have a full-sized H&K USP .45, and other handguns, of course.)

--Tim May "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler

-- "Those without creative minds and agile fingers are of course welcome to hurry up with my fries. And they'll probably use a GUI to take my order, too." - Tom Christiansen

On Monday, December 31, 2001, at 12:01 AM, Black Unicorn wrote:

Ancient German P7 secret:

You can decock the pistol silently by disengaging the squeeze cock mechanism under the trigger guard and flush with the depressed squeeze-cocker with the thumb on your free hand and slowly releasing pressure on the cocker. It's pretty easy to engage the cocker silently as well, but why bother? I

Could you elaborate on this please? I'm trying it right now, and I'm not understand how to make it any quieter than just letting go. As to the initial squeeze, it's actually so quiet as to be unnoticeable beyond arms length.

consider it like a set trigger. It only gets cocked when the target is acquired, identified and in the sights anyhow. If you really need that

I disagree, it gets cocked when it gets picked up. The finger doesn't get to the trigger until the sites are lined up.

They are one of the few well manufactured pistols that have properly balanced tolerances with a fixed barrel and still aren't subject to a lot of

One more point about the barrel--it sits a lot lower in the frame than most pistols, modifying the recoil to more of a push than a flip--this leads to a quicker followup shots.

jamming or ammo pickiness. It loves being dirty and will shoot on and on regardless of what its been through. (Fluted chamber helps here). Combined with good ammo, like say Golden Saber, the gun, if not the user, will outshoot about anything that isn't designed specifically for competition (i.e. impractical for real use).

However, do not get oil in the gas-tube. This will lead to problems.

More importantly it is simply the fastest, most accurate handgun from draw to target to fire that I've ever used. Best concealed carry around, in my view.

While I won't disagree, I will note that if you live in a cold climate, and use a very close to the body carry (IWB etc) the steel against your skin can get a little cold, while some of the polymer pistols won't have this problem (any metal bodied pistol will).

Like I said, I don't bother with anything else anymore.

Hell, they're all fun to shoot. -- "Those without creative minds and agile fingers are of course welcome to hurry up with my fries. And they'll probably use a GUI to take my order, too." - Tom Christiansen

Petro wrote:

...

Since 9mm is .36 caliber,

.38

Nope, it's .357 -- in fact, many are .355. So are all ".38", including .380, .38 short, .38 long, .38 special, etc. except for the .38-40 which is actually .401. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com

On Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 09:41 AM, Matthew Gaylor wrote:

At 1:05 AM -0800 1/2/02, Petro wrote:

...

The squeeze cock is activated as you draw/grasp the weapon. If the burglar is close enough to hear that he is going to notice your movement.

Right...like in a darkened bedroom as you crouch down waiting for your attacker...

Stop and think through this a second. First of all, the click is fairly quiet, much lower in volume than say--stroking a a pump shotgun, or racking the slide--along the lines of, say, opening a safe or gun locker? Second, what makes you aware that there is someone in your home? Usually it's noises they are making (I would assume). Have you ever listened to your house at night? Every place I've lived there are all sorts of mechanical noises off and on all night long. Refrigerator coming on, heating (or cooling) units kicking on and off, creaking from the wind blowing, the tick of a clock, the whirr of computers running (well, in my home). The subtle click of the cocker engaging will (a) be lost in the other noises and (b) is innocuous enough that they probably won't. If it was something I worried about (I don't keep a loaded firearm in the house for home protection at this point, I'm not high enough profile for the Feebs or the BATF to want to raid my "compound", nor am I a sufficient irritant to the local Gestapo, and my neighborhood is relative free of home burglary/home invasion type crimes that I feel it is better to keep the guns in a locker than on my bedside table) I would simply put the gun under a pillow to muffle the noise further, engage the cocker and start hunting. There are other techniques that you can use to to either mask, or render irrelevant the click, you can wait until you're bringing the pistol online for firing to cock it (squeeze the cocker as part of the final presentation), or as Black Uni noted, one can squeeze the trigger first, then engage the cocker (although this would take a bit of practice). But you have a valid question in:

The squeeze cocker is a solution for a non-existent problem. Do you really think a P7 is intrinsically safer >than a Sig226 which has no operator manipulated safety?

While I *like* the squeeze cocker for various reasons, It's not the #1 feature I like in that firearm. My reasons for choosing the firearm, from most important to the utterly trivial and pretty silly are: (1) It feels good it my hand, and seems to "point" much better for me (this is a function of ergonomics, and will vary for different people). (2) The barrel is fixed to the frame, and sits low in the frame reducing muzzle flip and allowing for *much* faster followup shots. (3) Reliable sturdy construction of both firearm and magazines (the factory mags are very sturdy and take a lot of abuse). (4) Compact size and relatively flat sides making for a more comfortable conceal carry piece, if I ever wind up doing so. (5) Nifty squeeze cocker that is much faster to access as a slide release than a frame or slide mounted release. Yes, that lever serves multiple functions, it cocks the weapon and serves as a slide release, you don't have to move your hand, change your grip on the weapon, or use your other hand to release the slide, just get a grip. (6) Nifty gas action (though subject to fouling). (7) Not very common. Everyone has a glock or a 1911 clone, booooring. (yes, I said utterly trivial and pretty silly).

Having a weapon that goes click clack is a detriment.

All weapons go click clack, it's just a question of when. I'm not knocking the Sig, it's a great gun, but I'd bet with a little research and time I could come up with some minor nits about it to blow up all out of proportion to the weapons utility and ablities. -- "I am sorry that some live in a fantasy world where guns are not appropriate. I only hope that your fantasy is not ripped to shreds when someone you love is killed and all you can do is offer the assailent another target." - dzimmerm, on kuro5hin