There.s a Secret Patriot Act, Senator Says
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/secret-patriot-act/ You may think you understand how the Patriot Act allows the government to spy on its citizens. Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) says it.s worse than you.ve heard. Congress is set to reauthorize three controversial provisions of the surveillance law as early as Thursday. But Wyden says that what Congress will renew is a mere fig leaf for a far broader legal interpretation of the Patriot Act that the government keeps to itself . entirely in secret. Worse, there are hints that the government uses this secret interpretation to gather what one Patriot-watcher calls a .dragnet. for massive amounts of information on private citizens; the government portrays its data-collection efforts much differently. .We.re getting to a gap between what the public thinks the law says and what the American government secretly thinks the law says,. Wyden tells Danger Room in an interview in his Senate office. .When you.ve got that kind of a gap, you.re going to have a problem on your hands.. What exactly does Wyden mean by that? As a member of the intelligence committee, he laments that he can.t precisely explain without disclosing classified information. But one component of the Patriot Act in particular gives him immense pause: the so-called .business-records provision,. which empowers the FBI to get businesses, medical offices, banks and other organizations to turn over any .tangible things. it deems relevant to a security investigation. .It is fair to say that the business-records provision is a part of the Patriot Act that I am extremely interested in reforming,. Wyden says. .I know a fair amount about how it.s interpreted, and I am going to keep pushing, as I have, to get more information about how the Patriot Act is being interpreted declassified. I think the public has a right to public debate about it.. That.s why Wyden and his colleague Sen. Mark Udall offered an amendment on Tuesday to the Patriot Act reauthorization. The amendment, first reported by Marcy Wheeler, blasts the administration for .secretly reinterpret[ing] public laws and statutes.. It would compel the Attorney General to .publicly disclose the United States Government.s official interpretation of the USA Patriot Act.. And, intriguingly, it refers to .intelligence-collection authorities. embedded in the Patriot Act that the administration briefed the Senate about in February. Wyden says he .can.t answer. any specific questions about how the government thinks it can use the Patriot Act. That would risk revealing classified information . something Wyden considers an abuse of government secrecy. He believes the techniques themselves should stay secret, but the rationale for using their legal use under Patriot ought to be disclosed. .I draw a sharp line between the secret interpretation of the law, which I believe is a growing problem, and protecting operations and methods in the intelligence area, which have to be protected,. he says. Surveillance under the business-records provisions has recently spiked. The Justice Department.s official disclosure on its use of the Patriot Act, delivered to Congress in April, reported that the government asked the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court for approval to collect business records 96 times in 2010 . up from just 21 requests the year before. The court didn.t reject a single request. But it .modified. those requests 43 times, indicating to some Patriot-watchers that a broadening of the provision is underway. .The FISA Court is a pretty permissive body, so that suggests something novel or particularly aggressive, not just in volume, but in the nature of the request,. says Michelle Richardson, the ACLU.s resident Patriot Act lobbyist. .No one has tipped their hand on this in the slightest. But we.ve come to the conclusion that this is some kind of bulk collection. It wouldn.t be surprising to me if it.s some kind of internet or communication-records dragnet.. (Full disclosure: My fiancie works for the ACLU.) The FBI deferred comment on any secret interpretation of the Patriot Act to the Justice Department. The Justice Department said it wouldn.t have any comment beyond a bit of March congressional testimony from its top national security official, Todd Hinnen, who presented the type of material collected as far more individualized and specific: .driver.s license records, hotel records, car-rental records, apartment-leasing records, credit card records, and the like.. But that.s not what Udall sees. He warned in a Tuesday statement about the government.s .unfettered. access to bulk citizen data, like .a cellphone company.s phone records.. In a Senate floor speech on Tuesday, Udall urged Congress to restrict the Patriot Act.s business-records seizures to .terrorism investigations. . something the ostensible counterterrorism measure has never required in its nearly 10-year existence. Indeed, Hinnen allowed himself an out in his March testimony, saying that the business-record provision .also. enabled .important and highly sensitive intelligence-collection operations. to take place. Wheeler speculates those operations include .using geolocation data from cellphones to collect information on the whereabouts of Americans. . something our sister blog Threat Level has reported on extensively. It.s worth noting that Wyden is pushing a bill providing greater privacy protections for geolocation info. For now, Wyden.s considering his options ahead of the Patriot Act vote on Thursday. He wants to compel as much disclosure as he can on the secret interpretation, arguing that a shadow broadening of the Patriot Act sets a dangerous precedent. .I.m talking about instances where the government is relying on secret interpretations of what the law says without telling the public what those interpretations are,. Wyden says, .and the reliance on secret interpretations of the law is growing.. Site: Oregon.gov ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds like Obama hasn't just embraced Gitmo, he's embraced secret laws through "Opinions" written by flunkies of the Office of Legal Counsel as well. What a pity that a guy who we all expected would be one of history's great presidents has turned into one of history's worst embarrasments. I would never have believed that GWB could be seen as a "moderate" standing next to Obama, but the truth is there for us all to see. So sad. //Alif -- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
@Alif, will you stop blaming a single person on the flaws the entire American government had for years and years? Thanks. On another note, happy I'm not an American. It seems that if then don't yet have a 'dragnet', which I doubt, they'll have one soon enough. 2011/5/26 J.A. Terranson <measl@mfn.org>
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/secret-patriot-act/
You may think you understand how the Patriot Act allows the government to spy on its citizens. Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) says it.s worse than you.ve heard.
Congress is set to reauthorize three controversial provisions of the surveillance law as early as Thursday. But Wyden says that what Congress will renew is a mere fig leaf for a far broader legal interpretation of the Patriot Act that the government keeps to itself . entirely in secret. Worse, there are hints that the government uses this secret interpretation to gather what one Patriot-watcher calls a .dragnet. for massive amounts of information on private citizens; the government portrays its data-collection efforts much differently.
.We.re getting to a gap between what the public thinks the law says and what the American government secretly thinks the law says,. Wyden tells Danger Room in an interview in his Senate office. .When you.ve got that kind of a gap, you.re going to have a problem on your hands..
What exactly does Wyden mean by that? As a member of the intelligence committee, he laments that he can.t precisely explain without disclosing classified information. But one component of the Patriot Act in particular gives him immense pause: the so-called .business-records provision,. which empowers the FBI to get businesses, medical offices, banks and other organizations to turn over any .tangible things. it deems relevant to a security investigation.
.It is fair to say that the business-records provision is a part of the Patriot Act that I am extremely interested in reforming,. Wyden says. .I know a fair amount about how it.s interpreted, and I am going to keep pushing, as I have, to get more information about how the Patriot Act is being interpreted declassified. I think the public has a right to public debate about it..
That.s why Wyden and his colleague Sen. Mark Udall offered an amendment on Tuesday to the Patriot Act reauthorization.
The amendment, first reported by Marcy Wheeler, blasts the administration for .secretly reinterpret[ing] public laws and statutes.. It would compel the Attorney General to .publicly disclose the United States Government.s official interpretation of the USA Patriot Act.. And, intriguingly, it refers to .intelligence-collection authorities. embedded in the Patriot Act that the administration briefed the Senate about in February.
Wyden says he .can.t answer. any specific questions about how the government thinks it can use the Patriot Act. That would risk revealing classified information . something Wyden considers an abuse of government secrecy. He believes the techniques themselves should stay secret, but the rationale for using their legal use under Patriot ought to be disclosed.
.I draw a sharp line between the secret interpretation of the law, which I believe is a growing problem, and protecting operations and methods in the intelligence area, which have to be protected,. he says.
Surveillance under the business-records provisions has recently spiked. The Justice Department.s official disclosure on its use of the Patriot Act, delivered to Congress in April, reported that the government asked the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court for approval to collect business records 96 times in 2010 . up from just 21 requests the year before. The court didn.t reject a single request. But it .modified. those requests 43 times, indicating to some Patriot-watchers that a broadening of the provision is underway.
.The FISA Court is a pretty permissive body, so that suggests something novel or particularly aggressive, not just in volume, but in the nature of the request,. says Michelle Richardson, the ACLU.s resident Patriot Act lobbyist. .No one has tipped their hand on this in the slightest. But we.ve come to the conclusion that this is some kind of bulk collection. It wouldn.t be surprising to me if it.s some kind of internet or communication-records dragnet.. (Full disclosure: My fiancie works for the ACLU.)
The FBI deferred comment on any secret interpretation of the Patriot Act to the Justice Department. The Justice Department said it wouldn.t have any comment beyond a bit of March congressional testimony from its top national security official, Todd Hinnen, who presented the type of material collected as far more individualized and specific: .driver.s license records, hotel records, car-rental records, apartment-leasing records, credit card records, and the like..
But that.s not what Udall sees. He warned in a Tuesday statement about the government.s .unfettered. access to bulk citizen data, like .a cellphone company.s phone records.. In a Senate floor speech on Tuesday, Udall urged Congress to restrict the Patriot Act.s business-records seizures to .terrorism investigations. . something the ostensible counterterrorism measure has never required in its nearly 10-year existence.
Indeed, Hinnen allowed himself an out in his March testimony, saying that the business-record provision .also. enabled .important and highly sensitive intelligence-collection operations. to take place. Wheeler speculates those operations include .using geolocation data from cellphones to collect information on the whereabouts of Americans. . something our sister blog Threat Level has reported on extensively.
It.s worth noting that Wyden is pushing a bill providing greater privacy protections for geolocation info.
For now, Wyden.s considering his options ahead of the Patriot Act vote on Thursday. He wants to compel as much disclosure as he can on the secret interpretation, arguing that a shadow broadening of the Patriot Act sets a dangerous precedent.
.I.m talking about instances where the government is relying on secret interpretations of what the law says without telling the public what those interpretations are,. Wyden says, .and the reliance on secret interpretations of the law is growing..
Site: Oregon.gov
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like Obama hasn't just embraced Gitmo, he's embraced secret laws through "Opinions" written by flunkies of the Office of Legal Counsel as well.
What a pity that a guy who we all expected would be one of history's great presidents has turned into one of history's worst embarrasments. I would never have believed that GWB could be seen as a "moderate" standing next to Obama, but the truth is there for us all to see.
So sad.
//Alif
-- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
On Thu, 26 May 2011, lodewijk andri de la porte wrote:
@Alif, ^ This isn't Twitter, and I don't Twit, so just the name will be fine. Thanks.
will you stop blaming a single person on the flaws the entire American government had for years and years? Thanks.
I'm not. I'm blaming him for being exactly the opposite of what he claimed. Another genuine politician - the one thing that made his election over Hillary Clinton possible (McCain was a non-starter after he picked a VP that had the IQ of a broccoli) was that he ran on a platform of transparency, closing gitmo, rolling back the Unitary Executive theory, and destroying the assholes on wall st. who fucked the economy up so bad that nearly a third of the country is now on food stamps, while nearly 14% is unemployed (over 9% if you don't count the "uncounted, long term unemployed). He ran on restraint, and an abhorrence of nation-building. Just like every other asshole who runs for office, he now *owns* his failures, and as the current head of the USG, the failures of anything under the control of the executive branch.
On another note, happy I'm not an American.
While I'm openly embarrased that I am.
It seems that if then don't yet have a 'dragnet', which I doubt, they'll have one soon enough.
On what planet are you living? The "dragnet" term seems odd in this context, and I *think* you mean a kind of "enemies list", a'la Nixon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemies_list ). The USG has been "interviewing" everyone with ANY possible connection to a Koran since Gulf War One, and we have been disappearing people (a war crime BTW) since 2001. I've lost count of the number of govt "officials" I've had to either talk to, or heard that neighbors have had to talk to, since the early 1990s - and I'm certain that there are a *lot* of people here who can share that sentiment. It pisses me of that we spend more money on "foriegn aid" than we do on "domestic aid", and that we cook the books openly and with impunity (something that amy mere citizen or even State would be dismantled for). HTH, //Alif -- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
On Thu, 2011-05-26 at 06:43 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote:
Sounds like Obama hasn't just embraced Gitmo, he's embraced secret laws through "Opinions" written by flunkies of the Office of Legal Counsel as well.
What a pity that a guy who we all expected would be one of history's great presidents has turned into one of history's worst embarrasments. I would never have believed that GWB could be seen as a "moderate" standing next to Obama, but the truth is there for us all to see.
So sad.
What you mean by "we all" is "I", right? [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
On Fri, 27 May 2011, Ted Smith wrote:
On Thu, 2011-05-26 at 06:43 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote:
Sounds like Obama hasn't just embraced Gitmo, he's embraced secret laws through "Opinions" written by flunkies of the Office of Legal Counsel as well.
What a pity that a guy who we all expected would be one of history's great presidents has turned into one of history's worst embarrasments. I would never have believed that GWB could be seen as a "moderate" standing next to Obama, but the truth is there for us all to see.
So sad.
What you mean by "we all" is "I", right?
No. What I mean is "we all": anyone who looks can see. I don't know anyone [personally] who voted for Obama (and implicitly for his "change platform of closing Gitmo; ending the wars; ending renditions; looking out for the little guy over the big corporations; the so-called "no lobbyists" policy - which he has ignored completely; etc.) who is not completely *disgusted* by what has happened: we voted for "change", and what we got was a spineless version of GWB, only he's a GWB with *more* wars to his name, and ZERO change. Obama had a genuine mandate when he took office (with a majority in both houses!), and should have used that mandate to effect the changes he ran on - but instead, he dallied and wavered until he eventually cost his party their majorities, and cost himself credibility. How can anyone take *anything* Obama says seriously, when we have already been shown (repeatedly) that he is little more than a serial liar who is completely, *100%* OWNED, by the very corporations and special interests he campaigned "against"? Now he's trying to abolish the 2ad by using a treaty which even KKKlinton refused to touch - selling it under the false premise that it is the only way to stop the flow of weapons from the US to Mexico. Just because Mexico is farther down the corruption highway than we are doesn't mean that we should be making fundamental changes to our country just to make it easier for them! Obama is a failure. He's been a failure from day 1. He's a spineless POS, and an embarrassment to the country. McCain was at least honest about his policy positions (yay for big business, to hell with the little guy): Obama is a hypocrite. Which is worse? Hard to say, really. We need 3rd party representation, and I'm NOT talking about the Teabaggers, I'm talking about a Kucinich or Ron Paul candidacy which is allowed to be shown to the country via the debate process (the last 4 election cycles have deliberately blocked these two from any meaningful participation. Not that I don't understand why: if allowed to speak freely, openly, and to the masses, they both would have a very serious shot at unseating the RepubliCrat machine (which pushes the same platforms from both of the "mainstream parties" - one party rule has never worked in any [supposedly] democratic society - it's not working here either). //Alif -- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
On Fri, 2011-05-27 at 22:48 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote:
On Fri, 27 May 2011, Ted Smith wrote:
On Thu, 2011-05-26 at 06:43 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote:
Sounds like Obama hasn't just embraced Gitmo, he's embraced secret laws through "Opinions" written by flunkies of the Office of Legal Counsel as well.
What a pity that a guy who we all expected would be one of history's great presidents has turned into one of history's worst embarrasments. I would never have believed that GWB could be seen as a "moderate" standing next to Obama, but the truth is there for us all to see.
So sad.
What you mean by "we all" is "I", right?
No. What I mean is "we all": anyone who looks can see. I don't know anyone [personally] who voted for Obama (and implicitly for his "change platform of closing Gitmo; ending the wars; ending renditions; looking out for the little guy over the big corporations; the so-called "no lobbyists" policy - which he has ignored completely; etc.) who is not completely *disgusted* by what has happened: we voted for "change",
There's your problem. [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 1:15 AM, Ted Smith <teddks@gmail.com> wrote:
... There's your problem.
robust systems arise from the emergent behavior of decentralized components. for example: - design, implement, nurture tech for individual citizens to engage their peers and communities. - extend upon this base to facilitate effective and accountable municipal administration. - extend upon this base to achieve robust state governance. - finally, leverage this outgrowth of competent administration and policy at the state level to drive change in federal governance. this is more likely to produce substantial "change" than a vote between Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich. breaking the red/blue dichotomy with independent Piss Bucket in the running won't change this dynamic. this is a Hard Problem with no simple answers... let me know if you solve it. ;) [ see http://www.usaspending.gov/explore for details on why top down is paralysis and bottom up is robust... ]
On Sat, 28 May 2011, Ted Smith wrote: <HUGE SNIP>
...we voted for "change",
There's your problem.
No, the problem isn't that people voted for "change". The problem is that we didn't hold his feet to the fire when he acted like a preschooler who was afraid of offending all of the new kids he had to now interact with. //Alif -- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
On Sat, 28 May 2011, Ted Smith wrote:
On Sat, 2011-05-28 at 09:42 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote:
No, the problem isn't that people voted
Sorry to break it to you, but it actually is.
OK troll. We're done. //Alif -- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
Oh god people are accusing other of trolling on the cypherpunks list. Wonder what's going to happen now! (note: I slept around 8 hours over the last 60, I hardly know what I'm saying!) 2011/5/29 J.A. Terranson <measl@mfn.org>
On Sat, 28 May 2011, Ted Smith wrote:
On Sat, 2011-05-28 at 09:42 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote:
No, the problem isn't that people voted
Sorry to break it to you, but it actually is.
OK troll. We're done.
//Alif
-- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
On Sun, 29 May 2011, lodewijk andri de la porte wrote:
Oh god people are accusing other of trolling on the cypherpunks list.
Yeah, now that you say it outloud, it does sound pretty funny - but lets get real, there's not many people left here these days. The paucity of people laves a paucity of posts, meaning a single troll can completely destroy the SNR all by themselves. Hell, he's one of the most prolific posters here now :-/
Wonder what's going to happen now!
Nothing. I doubt there's a lot of interest.
(note: I slept around 8 hours over the last 60, I hardly know what I'm saying!)
So there *are* people who still have jobs? Or are you working 2 jobs now :-) //Alif -- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
I'm just going on a vacation without having a vacation from my university and having a deadline (in the vacation) of something I didn't do previous period. Let me try to rephrase that: I have an immense amount of backlogged university work to do but I'm leaving on an airplane for vacation in about 2 hours. Note that the work is backlogged because it's boring. And much. It's much because I procrasted and because I'm physically and mentally incapable of doing something half baked. The assignment is quite open so I have to shoot for industry quality. Ever tried to make an industry quality game in Game Maker? I thought you didn't. That's because it's quite obnoxious. It's possible, to my great suprise, but until you've coded in a language without objects in an object based enviroment where you cannot pass an array and things like "tuples" don't exist. Well I'm not sure what. But I'm really tired now. Guess I'll be working on vacation. ENOUGH OFFTOPIC CHATTER! LETS TALK ABOUT HOW OUR PRIVACY IS INVADED AND THE GOVERNMENT IS SCARY AND POSSIBLY DANGEROUS. AND WHEN IN A GOOD MOOD ABOUT HOW WE'RE GONNA FIX IT. I actually have a lot of ideas. Most I can execute. Why in gods name am I in a university? Anyone? Better ideas? If everyone here is out of a job maybe we can create our own. P.S.: Obama promised the world but he's part of a massive party and I doubt he truly has enough power to shift America's fear-driven self destructive nature. (But he's still a cool guy, even though he doesn't seem to have done anything and didn't deserve that nobel prize (yet I hope). He's still cool.) Now I'm going to put everything on my laptop,fly to Rhodes and sleep, anyone who can guide my friends and me around? Best regards, Lodewijk (Lewis for those that can't pronounce it) Andre de la Porte (which is just that even if your tong doesn't bend that way.) Op 29 mei 2011 02:05 schreef J.A. Terranson <measl@mfn.org> het volgende:
On Sun, 29 May 2011, lodewijk andrC) de la porte wrote:
Oh god people are accusing other of trolling on the cypherpunks list.
Yeah, now that you say it outloud, it does sound pretty funny - but lets get real, there's not many people left here these days. The paucity of people laves a paucity of posts, meaning a single troll can completely destroy the SNR all by themselves. Hell, he's one of the most prolific posters here now :-/
Wonder what's going to happen now!
Nothing. I doubt there's a lot of interest.
(note: I slept around 8 hours over the last 60, I hardly know what I'm saying!)
So there *are* people who still have jobs? Or are you working 2 jobs now :-)
//Alif
-- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
Surely giving Obama the Nobel Peace Prize before he had done anything except talk about what he would do to end persistent warmaking must indicate that all he had to do was talk the talk to arouse delirium for Woodrow Wilson method acting. Kissinger was called a war criminal for that and remains on the wanted list (not really) of some countries who love Obama who does not appear to be Strangelove in Ghandi drag. Talkers, aka diplomats and scholars and national security experts and judges and lawyers and peace-niks and anti-war NGOs and foreign policy tanks and RANDs and anti-WMDs, provide excellent amply rewarded apologia for war-threat beneficiaries like themselves. Terrorism Allah-sent to head off Cold War winddown. Reminds of the comsec-loving greeders who warn of cyber insecurity and privacy invasion and soul losing who pray and lobby for the protection money to never end. Come on, nasty hackers, aka sinners, sysadmins, security pros and TLAs, churn those threats and counterthreats you were trained for. NDAs and official secrecy and confessional hootches protect you, well, except for your ass crack of insecurity-mongering. Question is, what classified threat was inrrefutably delivered to Obama (as with predecessors) about himself and his family, aka the nation, that caused a change of heart and mind. Could be related to the prospect of becoming poor rather than a rich -- no greater fear in capitalists. Courage is hardly contagious, trickery and deception are viralent.
On Sat, 28 May 2011, John Young wrote:
Surely giving Obama the Nobel Peace Prize before he had done anything except talk about what he would do to end persistent warmaking must indicate that all he had to do was talk the talk to arouse delirium for Woodrow Wilson method acting.
Yeah, I've had a lot of discussions about how dumb the NPP voters must feel at this point. Awarding him a prize for things he was promising to do, before he actually *did* ANYTHING, was (to use Ted's words), "stupid".
Talkers, aka diplomats and scholars and national security experts and judges and lawyers and peace-niks and anti-war NGOs and foreign policy tanks and RANDs and anti-WMDs, provide excellent amply rewarded apologia for war-threat beneficiaries like themselves. Terrorism Allah-sent to head off Cold War winddown. Precisely.
Reminds of the comsec-loving greeders who warn of cyber insecurity
<"CyberExpert"> OMG! We're facing the Digital Pearl Harbor!!! Waaaaaa.... </"Cyber-Expert>
and privacy invasion and soul losing who pray and lobby for the protection money to never end.
And under Obama, it never will. That we can spend hundreds of billions of dollars on foreign aid, and more hundreds of billions of dollars on Wall Street Aid, and *trillions* on Halliburton & Company Aid, without spending anything significant right here in River City (while simulatneously subjecting the already destitute to "austerity measures") galls me no end.
Question is, what classified threat was inrrefutably delivered to Obama (as with predecessors) about himself and his family, aka the nation, that caused a change of heart and mind.
Who says there was a change of heart and mind? What proof do we have that this wasn't just another professional election player doing an incredibly good PR fuck on all of us?
Courage is hardly contagious, trickery and deception are viralent.
All too true. //Alif -- I hate Missouri. Land of the free, home of the perjuriously deranged.
participants (5)
-
coderman -
J.A. Terranson -
John Young -
lodewijk andré de la porte -
Ted Smith