"Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin to schizophrenia." Well, I'm sure this is not an issue that Cypherpunks is going to want to spend a ton of time on, but let's be clear here. There's "belief", and then there's "faith". With belief,the believer refuses to acknowledge and accpet facts that disagree with their (narrow) worldview. I can't help but put the "Creationists" in this category. (Even a cursory look at their "science" makes it clear that there's TONS of information they ignored or explain away with absurd notions.) Faith is a different matter. With faith, the faithful see the "facts" (as they are commonly understood) and still find a way to believe in something unseen. Belief contradicts reason, faith operates in parallel. I would argue that great scientists operated with a decent amount of the latter, and Galileo is a good example. At the time, the geocentric theory was still able to predict most celestial events better than a heliocentric one. But Galileo had a deeper intuitive sense that something was "wrong" with that geocentric theory, and its clumsy and mind-boggling complexity. Likewise, every now and then one encounters religious people who recognize the "unreasonabilty" of what they believe. (Indeed, it's not easy to believe in a God that allows, for instance, the Holocaust to occur). I find these people very different from the "believer" category, and would place folks like Michelangelo, Kepler, Newton, Maxwell, Kierkegaard, Galileo, St John of the Cross (a Spanish mystic tortured by the inquisition) and many others in this category. As for being akin to Schizophrenia, I'd point out that Schizophrenia is not a "mental" disorder per se, but a genetically triggered even that causes a measurable, physical degradation in the brain (a Schizophrenic's brain can be identified in autopsies).

From: Sam Ritchie <kayakwcc@comcast.net> To: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves <Aife@netvisao.pt>, Mike Rosing <eresrch@eskimo.com> CC: Cypherpunks <cypherpunks@lne.com> Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:41:40 -0500

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From: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves <Aife@netvisao.pt> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:31:41 +0000 To: Mike Rosing <eresrch@eskimo.com> Cc: cypherpunks@lne.com Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

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On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote:

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That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then

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no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious "beliefs"; and if anything can be proven false, then there's no god, and religion is crushed under the heel of reason. Hurrah, Enlightenment! ~SAM

Don't bet on it. I was in a discussion group a week or so ago and one lady who is super devout (of some christian sect, I'm not really sure which one) claimed that she was always "testing her faith" every day. It really shook me up because I have faith in testing. Religion and reason are not in the same universe!

My favorite response on the subject of god is "I have no need of that hypothisis". I forget who it's attributed to, but I think it was from

On Thursday 14 November 2002 03:50, you wrote: there's the

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late 1800's.

Patience, persistence, truth, Dr. mike

The religious person is always battling against reality wich with a minimum of inteligence from the observer always bring doubts on the truth of his faith.

It's a state of mind wich can only be compared with mental ilness... (I've read that there are even some neurological similarities between the faithful and the mentaly ill)

Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin to schizophrenia. But that's a whole new kettle of fish. ~SAM

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The author of that statement: "I have no need of that hipotheses" was Laplace, french mathematician on answering Napoleon's question in why is book on newtonian mechanics didn't call for god.

Andri Esteves

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