At 06:54 PM 3/12/01 -0500, Ironloomis@aol.com wrote:
How do I get myself removed from this list?
Develop a keen interest in the Jim Bell/Carl Johnson prosecutions, and begin loud, frequent, public advocacy of Assassination Politics. Our agents will attend to removing you from the list, shortly. Reese
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:
At 06:54 PM 3/12/01 -0500, Ironloomis@aol.com wrote:
How do I get myself removed from this list?
Develop a keen interest in the Jim Bell/Carl Johnson prosecutions,
Shouldn't this be "persecutions"?
and begin loud, frequent, public advocacy of Assassination Politics.
Our agents will attend to removing you from the list, shortly.
Reese
-- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, J.A. Terranson wrote:
If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
These tactics are as valid today as they were when Niccolo Machiavelli first set them down on paper. Why should we expect that they will become ineffective any time soon? I had hoped that the internet would change the dynamics of the vox populi, by allowing people unintermediated discussion with one another, the space to develop ideas fully and learn that they were not alone in holding particular ideas. I had hoped that the Internet would stop the ancient tactic of isolating and ostracizing those who think differently, and allow them to create forums of their own and try to evolve some kind of interacting functional cultures together that incorporated their different ideas, providing a huge set of alternatives to the prozac culture. Somehow, it all seems to have gone to shit. Advertisers have infiltrated every corner of the web, and people who think differently are being drowned out almost as effectively there as they are on television. Censorship is running rampant, and tolerance is at about the lowest ebb it's been in my lifetime. The "mosaic culture" that the internet was supposed to enable keeps having bits of it cut off, and the new cultures that people who shared different ideas were once building have fallen victim to the same stupid FUD tactics and divisive tactics and agents provocateurs and crap that have been used against similar groups in meatspace since Machiavelli's time. Well, to be honest, since before that. He was just writing about established practice. It is not, evidently, possible to enable public participation without giving the majority the tools to engage in a tyranny over the minority. Julf was forced to roll over to the scientologists. Countless ISP's who've allowed "anonymous" customers to put up web sites have been forced to roll over when some LEA put kid porn up on their servers. Even Freenet is subject to this attack; if it gets too big for the lions to be comfortable with, they'll just put a whole bunch of illegal crap on it (copyrighted software and kid porn for starters) and then have it shut down (by making it illegal to run, monitoring networks for freenet packets, etc). If they make the legal exposure bad enough, they can keep the number of people using it so tiny that it's worthless. I dunno any more. I used to think that if I could create things that made it possible for people to communicate, we would eventually find out what Earth's people (as opposed to its governments) wanted -- that governments would have to respond to vox populi instead of dictating it. Now, with the crap I've seen in the last year, it just doesn't seem worth it. The Internet Pedophile scare is obviously orchestrated, ditto the Internet Terrorist scare. The nation states are dictating vox populi again, instead of the other way around, and the last american presidential election was a sick joke. In the only remaining superpower on Earth, We've got a thief as head of state, a crook in the DOJ, and the supreme court is nothing but a bunch of rubberstamp conservatives. Despite all my best efforts, and the best efforts of hundreds or even thousands of others, there seems to be no way to give the people their own voice any more. No matter what we do, these (untranslatable) are taking it over. There's a point at which the futility of it becomes overwhelming, and I just want to start pitching bombs or something. A visceral emotinal release of the frustration, if nothing else. And I bet that's why terrorism is on the rise; there's less and less of a way to work within the bounds, so frustrated people are being driven outside them. But if I did that, of course it would be just digested into pap for the masses and used as an excuse to outlaw everything I believe in. And I won't allow myself to be used in that way if I can possibly help it. So there's going to be no bomb-throwing for me, much as I sometimes think I'd enjoy it. All I ever really wanted was governments based on the will of the people. But it turns out the people have no will and the governments can tell them that their will is whatever the hell the governments want it to be. Bear feeling discouraged today.
At 09:09 AM 3/13/2001 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
Julf was forced to roll over to the scientologists.
Countless ISP's who've allowed "anonymous" customers to put up web sites have been forced to roll over when some LEA put kid porn up on their servers.
These examples illustrate that perfection eludes us - but they don't mean that it's not possible for more people to have more freedom more often, especially if they're motivated to seek it. Julf did a lot of good for a lot of people before he shut down, so I think penet.fi belongs in the history books as a net victory for the forces of freedom. There are still places where you can buy the medicines and chemicals you believe you need to maintain optimum health without getting permission from a nanny-doctor-HMO. There are still places where you can buy violence tools to protect yourself from people who intend harm to you or your family or your property. There are still places where you can buy and sell books and talk with others without fear of punishment. There are still places where you can worship (or not) as you choose without interference. There are still places you can live where your neighbors aren't in a hurry to supervise or surveil you or decide where you can hang up your laundry. No, you can't stand naked in the middle of the Golden Gate Bridge high on PCP proselytizing for a child-porn church while waving a full-auto firearm. Well, not without interference by others. And most of us don't really want that anyway (except when we're told we can't have it). You can still get a lot done and have a pretty good life despite the unavailability of perfect freedom (or anything else perfect, for that matter.) And people are building things (like GNU/Linux and the *BSD's and PGP/GPG, Freenet, and Mojo Nation -- and remailers, almost 10 years ago now) that do incrementally increase the effective available freedom in the world - again, they all fall short of perfection, but that's not so bad. We're moving closer. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles@netbox.com "Organized crime is the price we pay for organization." -- Raymond Chandler
At 07:10 AM 3/13/01 -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Reese wrote:
At 06:54 PM 3/12/01 -0500, Ironloomis@aol.com wrote:
How do I get myself removed from this list?
Develop a keen interest in the Jim Bell/Carl Johnson prosecutions,
Shouldn't this be "persecutions"?
I guess that would depend on perspective. Rob, Jeff et al. believe they prosecute, cypherpunks believe they persecute.
and begin loud, frequent, public advocacy of Assassination Politics.
Our agents will attend to removing you from the list, shortly.
Reese
At 09:09 AM 3/13/01 -0800, Ray Dillinger wrote:
I had hoped that the internet would change the dynamics of the vox populi, by allowing people unintermediated discussion with one another, the space to develop ideas fully and learn that they were not alone in holding particular ideas.
people who think differently are being
drowned out almost as effectively there as they are on television. Censorship is running rampant, and tolerance is at about the lowest ebb it's been in my lifetime. The "mosaic culture" that the internet was supposed to enable keeps having bits of it cut off
Bear, the net is letting people see who / what their neighbors really are, and really are interested in. Whenever you mix cultures you find xenophobia and suppression of the minor cultures. The internet is merely stirring things up a little more. That's my long-term optimistic take on what you write, which I agree with.
participants (6)
-
David Honig -
Greg Broiles -
Ironloomis＠aol.com -
J.A. Terranson -
Ray Dillinger -
Reese