RE: Gripes About Airport Security Grow Louder
-----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@minder.net [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@minder.net]On Behalf Of Steve Thompson Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:13 PM To: cypherpunks@al-qaeda.net Subject: RE: Gripes About Airport Security Grow Louder
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote: [airport security]
More indications of an emerging 'Brazil' scenario, as opposed to a hyper-intelligent super-fascist state.
As if.
There already is a kind of intelligent super-fascist state in place thoughout much of society. My bugbears of the moment are the police and courts, so you get my take on how they are organised so as to be 'intelligent' without seeming so -- which further enables a whole lot of fraud to masqerade as process and incompetence. The super-fascist part comes about because the system avoids public accountability while also somehow evading any sort of reasonable standard of performance.
What's the error rate, that is the false arrest, prosecution, and/or conviction rate of a Western countries' judiciary and police divitions? If it's even ten percent, and it's probably much higher, then there is no reason to respect the operation and perpetuation of the system.
One chilling data point. Remember a few years ago the (pro death penalty) governor of Illinois suspended all the death sentences in has state? The reason being was that with the introduction of DNA testing, 1/3 of the people on death row were found to be innocent. I don't know how many other innocents the state planned to murder, but presumably there were some cases where DNA evidence was not available. If, in a capital case, where the money to pay public defenders is usually maximally available, and the appeals process, checks, and cross-checks are the more thorough than in any non-capital prosecution, you STILL get at least a 33% error rate, then what is the wrongfull conviction rate in non-capital cases, where there are far fewer appeals, and public defenders are paid a pittance? Peter Trei
If, in a capital case, where the money to pay public defenders is usually maximally available, and the appeals process, checks, and cross-checks are the more thorough than in any non-capital prosecution, you STILL get at least a 33% error rate, then what is the wrongfull conviction rate in non-capital cases, where there are far fewer appeals, and public defenders are paid a pittance?"
And of course there's the fairly obvious point that lots of those in prison "correctly" are there for drug-related "crimes". Said crimes would almost completely dissappear and drug usage would drop if many of those drugs were legalized and taxed. But God forbid that happen because what would all those policemen do for a living? Prison workers? Judges? -TD
From: "Trei, Peter" <ptrei@rsasecurity.com> To: "Steve Thompson" <steve49152@yahoo.ca>, <cypherpunks@al-qaeda.net> Subject: RE: Gripes About Airport Security Grow Louder Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:01:26 -0500
-----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@minder.net [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@minder.net]On Behalf Of Steve Thompson Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:13 PM To: cypherpunks@al-qaeda.net Subject: RE: Gripes About Airport Security Grow Louder
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote: [airport security]
More indications of an emerging 'Brazil' scenario, as opposed to a hyper-intelligent super-fascist state.
As if.
There already is a kind of intelligent super-fascist state in place thoughout much of society. My bugbears of the moment are the police and courts, so you get my take on how they are organised so as to be 'intelligent' without seeming so -- which further enables a whole lot of fraud to masqerade as process and incompetence. The super-fascist part comes about because the system avoids public accountability while also somehow evading any sort of reasonable standard of performance.
What's the error rate, that is the false arrest, prosecution, and/or conviction rate of a Western countries' judiciary and police divitions? If it's even ten percent, and it's probably much higher, then there is no reason to respect the operation and perpetuation of the system.
One chilling data point. Remember a few years ago the (pro death penalty) governor of Illinois suspended all the death sentences in has state? The reason being was that with the introduction of DNA testing, 1/3 of the people on death row were found to be innocent.
I don't know how many other innocents the state planned to murder, but presumably there were some cases where DNA evidence was not available.
If, in a capital case, where the money to pay public defenders is usually maximally available, and the appeals process, checks, and cross-checks are the more thorough than in any non-capital prosecution, you STILL get at least a 33% error rate, then what is the wrongfull conviction rate in non-capital cases, where there are far fewer appeals, and public defenders are paid a pittance?
Peter Trei
--- "Trei, Peter" <ptrei@rsasecurity.com> wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@minder.net [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@minder.net]On Behalf Of Steve Thompson Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:13 PM To: cypherpunks@al-qaeda.net Subject: RE: Gripes About Airport Security Grow Louder
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote: [airport security]
More indications of an emerging 'Brazil' scenario, as opposed to a hyper-intelligent super-fascist state.
As if.
There already is a kind of intelligent super-fascist state in place thoughout much of society. My bugbears of the moment are the police and courts, so you get my take on how they are organised so as to be 'intelligent' without seeming so -- which further enables a whole lot of fraud to masqerade as process and incompetence. The super-fascist part comes about because the system avoids public accountability while also somehow evading any sort of reasonable standard of performance.
What's the error rate, that is the false arrest, prosecution, and/or conviction rate of a Western countries' judiciary and police divitions? If it's even ten percent, and it's probably much higher, then there is no reason to respect the operation and perpetuation of the system.
One chilling data point. Remember a few years ago the (pro death penalty) governor of Illinois suspended all the death sentences in has state? The reason being was that with the introduction of DNA testing, 1/3 of the people on death row were found to be innocent.
I don't know how many other innocents the state planned to murder, but presumably there were some cases where DNA evidence was not available.
If, in a capital case, where the money to pay public defenders is usually maximally available, and the appeals process, checks, and cross-checks are the more thorough than in any non-capital prosecution, you STILL get at least a 33% error rate, then what is the wrongfull conviction rate in non-capital cases, where there are far fewer appeals, and public defenders are paid a pittance?
Peter Trei
______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- Tyler Durden <camera_lumina@hotmail.com> wrote: [mistake rate]
And of course there's the fairly obvious point that lots of those in prison "correctly" are there for drug-related "crimes". Said crimes would almost completely dissappear and drug usage would drop if many of those drugs were legalized and taxed. But God forbid that happen because what would all those policemen do for a living? Prison workers? Judges?
Well, pot is bad. Duh. Regards, Steve ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Speaking of mistakes.... I seem to have pasted the wrong message text when I sent my reply to Mr. Trei. I regret the unfortunate duplication and consequent waste of list bandwidth. ----------------------- --- "Trei, Peter" <ptrei@rsasecurity.com> wrote: [mistake rate]
If, in a capital case, where the money to pay public defenders is usually maximally available, and the appeals process, checks, and cross-checks are the more thorough than in any non-capital prosecution, you STILL get at least a 33% error rate, then what is the wrongfull conviction rate in non-capital cases, where there are far fewer appeals, and public defenders are paid a pittance?
I couldn't say, but it is well known that people who are accused of a crime are given rather large incentives to plead guilty in order to avoid the lengthly trial process. This is, of course, a major point. However, there isn't much discussion about the lack of accountability for people (police, judicial officials, etc.) who themselves run afoul of "the law" and who are rarely punished at all. And of course there's the lucrative prison system with it's large union and bureaucracy. Plus, many people know about the recruiting facet of that industry in which some individuals are groomed and incentivised to become agents of the state, in one capacity or another, in exchange for freedom or lesser sentences. Insofar as the intel community is concerned, it seems from my perspective that there is no effective deterrent for violent crime since you've pretty much got to do something really stupid before they'll prosecute: like cut off your wife's head and store it in your freezer, or something equally gregarious. For people in SpookWorld, fraud, larceny, perjury, and murder are merely the tools of the trade. And don't get me started on about the cartels. Regards, Steve ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
participants (3)
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Steve Thompson -
Trei, Peter -
Tyler Durden