Re: Three Cheers for the State - RAH RAH RAH
Thomas Shaddack wrote... "This is enforceable only with purely money-based economy. But there are activities that are done for non-monetary profit: knowledge, experience, fun. Or plain barter. I remove a virus from your computer, you later drop by to repair my TV; barter, no paper trail. Help me and I will help you when you'll need. Instead of shelving out money for expensive courseware, drop by and I'll explain you how TCP/IP works. Then do the same for me with SQL couple weeks later. Skills and knowledge are a kind of capital as well - the kind of ownership no IRS can audit you for." This is actually done systematically done in parts of the US. It's referred to by various names, including a "time bank". Basically, anyone in the community contributes X hours of their skill, which is counted purely as time in hours. They can then "withdraw" an equivalent number of hours from the bank in terms of the goods and services of the other bank memebers. Strangely, in some parts of the country the system has so proliferated some communities that they have issued "money" that can be spent in local shops. This money is "backed" by X hours in the time bank. There're some people who actually collect these time bank tokens. Now for some reason, there was a lot of talk about these time banks back in the mid 90s, but now I rarely hear about them. I wonder if the potential loss of tax revenue was a factor. Hum...it'd be interesting to look at securing one of those local time banks with financial cryptography. -TD
From: Thomas Shaddack <shaddack@ns.arachne.cz> To: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com> CC: Patrick Chkoreff <patrick@fexl.com>, dgcchat <dgcchat@lists.goldmoney.com>, <cypherpunks@lne.com> Subject: Re: Three Cheers for the State - RAH RAH RAH Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:16:05 +0200 (CEST)
On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
- Opposing any war is treason.
Well, if you're the de facto property of one nation-state or another, that's exactly true. Find me someone who isn't, these days.
I refuse to be a property. Whoever handles me as such, gets open disrespect and either my open refusal to obey, or, in compliance with Czech national tradition, a hidden refusal to obey[1]. Unique concept of sabotage by obedience.
[1] Refer to "The Good Soldier Schweik", local national hero. <http://my.core.com/~zenny/index.html> See also http://www.rferl.org/newsline/1999/07/5-NOT/not-090799.html for the international politics applications.
Isn't it already? Certainly I think that *nothing* should be done without profit, that nothing really *is* done without profit to somebody, no matter what its governmental designation, and that *all* economic activity should be taxed if any of it is, and it *will* be, directly in cash, or indirectly in regulation, since we're all the "property" of one nation state or another, whether we say we "own ourselves" or not. So, maybe you're right.
This is enforceable only with purely money-based economy. But there are activities that are done for non-monetary profit: knowledge, experience, fun. Or plain barter. I remove a virus from your computer, you later drop by to repair my TV; barter, no paper trail. Help me and I will help you when you'll need. Instead of shelving out money for expensive courseware, drop by and I'll explain you how TCP/IP works. Then do the same for me with SQL couple weeks later. Skills and knowledge are a kind of capital as well - the kind of ownership no IRS can audit you for.
Tax this. Regulate this. Good luck.
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On Tuesday 22 April 2003 17:39, Tyler Durden wrote:
Strangely, in some parts of the country the system has so proliferated some communities that they have issued "money" that can be spent in local shops. This money is "backed" by X hours in the time bank. There're some people who actually collect these time bank tokens.
Now for some reason, there was a lot of talk about these time banks back in the mid 90s, but now I rarely hear about them. I wonder if the potential loss of tax revenue was a factor.
The IRS claims jurisdiction over all time banks and barter exchanges. Each participant is required to provide his SSN for reporting, and all transactions must be logged. Taxes must be paid for time worked.
Hum...it'd be interesting to look at securing one of those local time banks with financial cryptography.
But, but, but...that would be tax fraud. You'd be aiding terrorists. And think of the chiiiiildren. -- Steve Furlong Computer Condottiere Have GNU, Will Travel Guns will get you through times of no duct tape better than duct tape will get you through times of no guns. -- Ron Kuby
On Tuesday, April 22, 2003, at 05:27 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:
On Tuesday 22 April 2003 17:39, Tyler Durden wrote:
Hum...it'd be interesting to look at securing one of those local time banks with financial cryptography.
But, but, but...that would be tax fraud. You'd be aiding terrorists. And think of the chiiiiildren.
And the nexus of taxation is the actual worker (narced out by others), not the means of settlement. The means of settlement is usually cash, folding money, and is not traceable in any plausible way. The attack on off-the-book/under-the-table business transactions is not the clearing mechanism. After all, cash works perfectly well for clearing under-the-table transactions. What nails under-the-table transactions is (rarely, actually) when someone narcs out a partner as a way of getting a lighter sentence. This will all change if cash is ever outlawed, if the Beast insists that all financial transactions be cleared through one of his compliant banks. This is expected to happen soon enough, by more of us than just Xtian Fundies. --Tim May
participants (3)
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Steve Furlong -
Tim May -
Tyler Durden