MK wrote...

I find it always interesting how people (especially from the US) seem to have prefabricated ideas about how other countries are, but are at the same time so much in denial about their own society that it is just frightening.

Well, that's true. It's a point I've made on Cypherpunks many times, that many economic, political, or legal analeses of other countries (particularly non-Indo-European) only hold up at the surface... My comment was more general, and not necessarily aimed at Germany per se. For instance, there theoretically seems to be laws about everything in Italy, but nobody seems to obey them and they are only enforced half-heartedly, and for as long as it's in vogue to give a crap. Likewise, Communist "Land Reform" in mainland China isn't communist so much as it's Chinese: land reform and nationalisation of salt production and other industries have regularly occurred throughout Chinese history. "Communism" in mainland China was a mask that seemed to last about as long as Mao was alive. (Of course, the hardheads on this list will reply by saying that Chinese culture has always been more "communistic" than other countries, but then this statement ignores just how truly capitalist China has become since 1984 or so. It remains oppressive, of course, if you're discussing the wrong subjects....)

One huge difference I have noticed between the US and Germany in particular is that discussions LIKE these are still happening in the mainstream press, not only in the "left" or "right" wing propaganda papers.

Yes...because we Americans have only had one government, we tend to equate "legality" with morality, and then assume the discussion is over. No doubt that causes us to look at laws "over there" as being far more important than they really are...at least some times. -TD _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx