CDR: US report urges Arafat to use torture for peace
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Middle_East/2000-11/ruthless061100.s... An influential think-tank advises Palestinian Authority to ruthlessly repress militant elements without regard for basic human rights By Robert Fisk in Gaza 6 November 2000 Palestinian leaders have been shocked to read an American think-tank report which urges them to act "ruthlessly" against opponents of the Oslo agreement Ð even if this involves "excessive force", trials without due process of law and "interrogation methods that border on psychological and/or physical torture." A draft copy of the report by the influential Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), which has close links with the United States government, has been published on the internet and circulated among dozens of members of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza, including Yasser Arafat's most senior intelligence officers. The report says that even if peace follows the "Second Intifada", "both sides [Palestinian and Israeli] will be forced to conduct aggressive [sic] security operations for years to come" which "can have a high price tag in terms of human rights." By way of comparison, it adds that British security forces in Northern Ireland "balanced" what it calls "effective security" with human rights Ð even though "the British used excessive force, abused human rights, and used extreme interrogation methods and torture." Amnesty International and other human rights groups have frequently condemned the use of arbitrary false arrest, detention and torture by Arafat's "muhabarrat" security apparatus, pointing out that CIA operatives appear to have been complicit in these abuses. Far from denouncing these practices, however, the draft CSIS report appears to encourage their use, stating that "such measures also tend to work". The document is dated 18 October and bears the name of Anthony H Cordesman Ð a former national security assistant to failed Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain Ð who is now holder of the Arleigh A Burke Chair in Strategy at the CSIS, named after the former Chief of US Naval Operations. His document is heavily referenced to CIA, State Department and Israeli sources and, according to Palestinian officials here, has been circulated within the US and Israeli governments. Entitled "Peace and War: Israel versus the Palestinians", it recounts the turbulent history of Israeli-Palestinian relations since the 1993 Oslo agreement although its bias is obvious from the frequent use of "terrorist" to describe violent Arab groups and the almost ubiquitous use of "extremist" in reference to their violent Israeli opposite numbers. It excuses the use of Israeli live bullets against stone-throwers, adding that CS gas and rubber bullets are often "not effective in stopping large groups" and that "troops cannot let mobs armed with stones and Molotov cocktails close on their positions, or rely on the riot control gear used in civil disobedience." In a section headed "The Need for Palestinian Authority Ruthlessness and Efficiency", it states "there will be no future peace, or stable peace process, if the Palestinian security forces do not act ruthlessly and effectively. They must react very quickly and decisively in dealing with terrorism and violence if they are to preserve the momentum of Israeli withdrawal, the expansion of Palestinian control, and the peace process. They must halt civil violence even if this sometimes means using excessive force by the standards of Western police forces. They must be able to halt terrorist and paramilitary action by Hamas and Islamic Jihad even if this means interrogations, detentions and trials that are too rapid and lack due process. If they do not, the net cost to both peace and the human rights of most Palestinians will be devastating." The report says that permission must be obtained for any publication of the contents, but copies have now been circulated throughout the Palestinian Authority, including the offices of Mohamed Dahalan and Jibril Rajoub, respectively heads of Arafat's "Preventative Security" in Gaza and Ramallah. Both Dahalan and Rajoub were sent to Langley, Virginia, for what was called "human rights training" by US government intelligence services. Although it condemns "Israeli terrorism" Ð a phrase used only once and in reference to Jewish settlers' groups Ð the document concludes with chilling advice to both Palestinians and Israelis. "Every counter-terrorist force that has ever succeeded has had to act decisively and sometimes violently," it says. "Effective counter-terrorism relies on interrogation methods that border on psychological and/or physical torture, arrests and detentions that are 'arbitrary' by the standards of civil law, break-ins and intelligence operations that violate the normal rights of privacy, levels of violence in making arrests that are unacceptable in civil cases, and measures that involve the innocent (or at least not provably directly guilty) in arrests and penalties." The issue, the report adds, "is not whether extreme security measures will sometimes be used, or whether they are sometimes necessary. The issue is rather how many such acts occur, how well-focused they are on those who directly commit terrorism, and how justified they are in terms of their relative cost-benefits." Palestinian officials here noted with surprise how accurate was the report's list of escalating Israeli responses to the current low-intensity war, from Israeli mobilisation of armour to the sealing off of Palestinian towns and "the use of helicopter gunships and snipers to provide mobility and suppressive fire". Apparently based on a 1996 Israeli test plan codenamed "Operation Field of Thorns", the military responses end with the "forced evacuation" of Palestinians from "sensitive areas". Palestine Authority officers, however, were taken aback to read that the PA's "military strength" includes a Lockheed Jetstar aircraft. The plane, they point out, happens to be Arafat's personal executive jet.
On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, An Metet wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Middle_East/2000-11/ruthless061100.s...
An influential think-tank advises Palestinian Authority to ruthlessly repress militant elements without regard for basic human rights
By Robert Fisk in Gaza
"If you can't beat em, beat em!" alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
At 11:14 PM -0500 11/5/00, An Metet wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Middle_East/2000-11/ruthless061100.s...
An influential think-tank advises Palestinian Authority to ruthlessly repress militant elements without regard for basic human rights
By Robert Fisk in Gaza
6 November 2000
Palestinian leaders have been shocked to read an American think-tank report which urges them to act "ruthlessly" against opponents of the Oslo agreement - even if this involves "excessive force", trials without due process of law and "interrogation methods that border on psychological and/or physical torture."
A draft copy of the report by the influential Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), which has close links with the United States government, has been published on the internet and circulated among dozens of members of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza, including Yasser Arafat's most senior intelligence officers.
This has been SOP for the U.S. for a half century or more. -- CIA training schools for torturers, assassins, death squads, etc. -- "College of the Americas" -- extremely "anti-constitutional" policies in countries the U.S. invades: confiscation of all privately-owned weapons, shutting down of newspapers and radio stations critical of the U.S. invasion, imposition of price controls...the U.S.G. treats moves into foreign countries as the chance to do everything it can't do inside the U.S. -- did I mention training torturers and death squad members in Honduras, Argentina, Guatemala, El Salvador, Somalia (before the natives kicked out the U.S. soldiers via what the U.S.G. called "terrorism"), and numerous other countries (The U.S. Army had developed the "Can you fly?" torture method, where a group of Viet Cong or NVA prisoners were loaded onto choppers and then, one by one, pushed out at a few thousand feet. The Argentinians modified this for their treatment of the students, union members, and political activists they arrested by the tens of thousands: they loaded them onto C-5 cargo planes and pushed them out over the ocean. No wonder they "disappeared." The CIA no doubt updated their training manuals accordingly.) By the way, my best demolition manuals are from the U.S.G. (I picked up a set of four CD-ROMs with nearly all of the U.S.G. terrorism, assassination, mayhem, booby trap, and similar manuals. Precisely the kind of "bomb-making instructions" the criminals like Sen. Swinestein are trying to get banned.)
The document is dated 18 October and bears the name of Anthony H Cordesman - a former national security assistant to failed Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain - who is now holder of the Arleigh A Burke Chair in Strategy at the CSIS, named after the former Chief of US Naval Operations. His document is heavily referenced to CIA, State Department and Israeli sources and, according to Palestinian officials here, has been circulated within the US and Israeli governments.
Cordesman is also, ironically, a journalist for audio and audiophile magazines, the kind of magazines ("Stereophile," "The Absolute Sound") which report on the Tice Clock, an LED alarm clock which when plugged into any outlet in the room of a stereo system results in "a delicate softening of the mid-range digital signals, enhancing the perceived dimensionality of the tonal experience. The fact that the Tice Clock was _advertised_ in these rags, er, journals, was unimportant. (I'm not criticizing Cordesman for these audio things, just noting that I've been following his career since the Gulf War, when he was a daily commentator on CNN and similar networks. Yes, he's the same guy...no error.) --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
At 11:49 PM 11/5/00 -0500, Tim May wrote:
By the way, my best demolition manuals are from the U.S.G. (I picked up a set of four CD-ROMs with nearly all of the U.S.G. terrorism, assassination, mayhem, booby trap, and similar manuals. Precisely the kind of "bomb-making instructions" the criminals like Sen. Swinestein are trying to get banned.)
So are you going to put them out on Napster? :-) Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
-- At 11:14 PM 11/5/2000 -0500, An Metet wrote:
Palestinian leaders have been shocked to read an American think-tank report which urges them to act "ruthlessly" against opponents of the Oslo agreement P even if this involves "excessive force", trials without due process of law and "interrogation methods that border on psychological and/or physical torture."
This reminds me of that scene in "Casablanca" where the chief of police piously announces "I am shocked" --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG AqIh84L/adi58eNvUtlhV1xJRkfuvGmkPNkbyS6P 4UtSirjWtneuRiKEw7rXSd2S+S8JCLhrcBGgGEYXp
It excuses the use of Israeli live bullets against stone-throwers, adding
At 11:14 PM 11/5/00 -0500, An Metet wrote: that CS gas and rubber bullets are The Israelis claim that they use live ammo against molotov cocktailers, not mere stoners. Without intending to enter a geopolitical discussion :-) this seems reasonable. I think any home or store owner would do this; and as RoE for soldiers it seems reasonable. Perhaps they need a water cannon, but water is pretty scarce there..
What kind of bullshit is this? The term "stone throwers" make's it sound like it's a bunch of little kids thowing pebbles. These dudes are throwing fist sized rocks and many of them are using the old thong slings like David used to slay Goliath. And you get a whole gang of them -- it's deadly barrage. That's how they used to execute people over there -- "let him who casts the first stone", eh? What would you do if a mob came at you throwing stones the size of your fist? I'd open up on them myself without a qualm. And not with rubber bullets either. The Israeli soldiers are showing incredible restraint -- I'd just go rock and roll solid ball, with a ma deuce if I had it. David Honig wrote:
It excuses the use of Israeli live bullets against stone-throwers, adding
At 11:14 PM 11/5/00 -0500, An Metet wrote: that CS gas and rubber bullets are
The Israelis claim that they use live ammo against molotov cocktailers, not mere stoners. Without intending to enter a geopolitical discussion :-) this seems reasonable. I think any home or store owner would do this; and as RoE for soldiers it seems reasonable.
Perhaps they need a water cannon, but water is pretty scarce there..
On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Harmon Seaver wrote:
What would you do if a mob came at you throwing stones the size of your fist? I'd open up on them myself without a qualm. And not with rubber bullets either. The Israeli soldiers are showing incredible restraint -- I'd just go rock and roll solid ball, with a ma deuce if I had it.
The Isreali's are showing incredible restraint? I agree, any country that makes it illegal to fly ones own national flat in ones own front yard is truly showing incredible restraint. Any country that uses tanks and attack helicopters to keep control of other peoples land is showing incredible restraint. The Isrealis are a bunch of fucking fascist who are out to steal other peoples land by killing them. Hell if the Isreali's had one speck of human dignity and compassion they'd agree to Jerusalem being an open city and allow it to represent both religions. Neither side is 'right' in this until both sides can see a way to live next door to each other and share their commen heritage. ____________________________________________________________________ He is able who thinks he is able. Buddha The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Forget the politics, whose right or wrong, etc. -- just consider the situation of a mob coming at you throwing large stones (and molotov cocktails -- and also firing weapons occasionally). What would you do, hold your fire? Use rubber bullets? What I object to is the slanted reporting of the left-wingers who continually speak about "stone throwing youths" as if these were children throwing little pebbles. But on the political side -- yes, there too the Israeli's are showing restraint. They should never have allowed any Arabs to remain inside their borders. The Palestinians have a country, it's called Jordan. And the problem in Jordan is that they have a royal family who is not Palestinian, but Saudi. Everyone else is Palestinian. Israel is a incredibly tiny piece of land, very hard to defend militarily, and impossible without the westbank. I notice that those people who whine about the Israeli's taking Arab land don't follow their own beliefs and pack up and go back to Europe and give my ancestors land back to us. Fair is fair, right? Put your money where your mouth is, Choate. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver@arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us
At 11:59 PM 11/6/00 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
What kind of bullshit is this? The term "stone throwers" make's it sound like it's a bunch of little kids thowing pebbles. These dudes are throwing fist sized rocks and many of them are using the old thong slings like David used to slay Goliath. And you get a whole gang of them -- it's deadly barrage. That's how they used to execute people over there -- "let him who casts the first stone", eh? What would you do if a mob came at you throwing stones the size of your fist? I'd open up on them myself without a qualm. And not with rubber bullets either. The Israeli soldiers are showing incredible restraint -- I'd just go rock and roll solid ball, with a ma deuce if I had it.
1. the soldiers have riot gear on, hand-thrown stones aren't too significant 2. its a judgement call about appropriate force and I was gisting an Israeli general in charge. They use snipers' head shots on cocktailers.
-- At 11:14 PM 11/5/00 -0500, An Metet wrote:
It excuses the use of Israeli live bullets against stone-throwers, adding that CS gas and rubber bullets are
09:18 PM 11/6/2000 -0500, David Honig wrote:
The Israelis claim that they use live ammo against molotov cocktailers, not mere stoners.
This claim is partly true, and partly false. In a few cases the Jews have openly responded to rocks with gunfire. I would do the same in their shoes. In many cases someone in hiding slingshots a rock at a Jewish gunman and then runs, the Jewish gunmen men then kill some random Palestinians in reprisal, and then proclaim they think that someone was shooting at them. Note I said Jewish gunmen, not Israeli gunmen, since non Jewish citizens of Israel are screwed almost as badly as the non citizens, because Jewish non citizens have no difficulty exercising freedom to move themselves, goods, and money throughout Israel and the occupied territories, whereas non Jewish citizens have great difficulty in doing this. About half the Palestinians that are killed are shot in the head. If they shot in the course of combat, more of them would be shot in the trunk. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG KUQ1s2xYS02SRwUmgwJvdgjGmkWZaXnDr+eo9q29 4KHmU5/34CgqD/sLbCdGLzO9IpmDw8W9691cvy+KS
participants (8)
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Alan Olsen -
An Metet -
Bill Stewart -
David Honig -
Harmon Seaver -
James A. Donald -
Jim Choate -
Tim May