At 05:38 AM 4/11/04 -0400, An Metet wrote:
And the responsibles need killing.
No, they don't.
There are two alternative solutions to the problem of restrictions on information flow, or more generally restrictions on any sort of voluntary and cooperative activity. One is to use force to fight back, even to the point of killing the perpetrators. This is what you are advocating
when you say they "need killing".
When faced with force, you reply with force when you can.
The other is to evade the restrictions. This does not involve killing,
force, or violence of any sort. Cryptography is an ideal tool for this
purpose. It allows people to communicate and exchange data even when outsiders want them to stop. Via digital cash they can even contract together, and buy and sell information and services. BlackNet is intended to be an example of how this could work.
Correct. But the existence of technical means for playing with bits and hiding from oppression does not change the ethics of the material world. When the State's otherwise legitimate monopoly on force is abused the appropriate response is not to hope the oppressors go away. When the Jews were put in the ghettos, an abuse of State force, the appropriate response was more than merely publishing anonymous flyers or mumbling in secret languages. There are times when agents have earned killing. Blacknet is a robust archive for words, immune to force (by State or private actors), but merely words. ----- "How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?" --Alexander Solzhenitzyn, Gulag Archipelago
Major Variola (ret) (2004-04-11 16:42Z) wrote:
Blacknet is a robust archive for words, immune to force (by State or private actors), but merely words.
With all due respect to the principle of freedom of speech and all that, I think that cypherpunks, and people in general, give far too little respect to words, as if words are a vague, unimportant, and remote link in the chain of causation of acts or failure-to-acts. I don't see anything wrong with Orwell's view that words control the future's view of history. His certainly have. I think mass anonymity and cypherpunk-ish society aren't themselves motive forces on the level of the _contents_ of some anonymous speech that would be facilitated by those institutions. That's the whole point, right? What would be the use of cypherpunk society if the speech and data havens it allowed were "merely words"? I'm unconvinced that there isn't a deterministic component to the speech->action transition. Even though the results of some speech may be extraordinarily terrible, restrictions on free speech are artifacts of previous, equally terrible free speech that has achieved a foothold in government. -- "You took my gun. It's just your word against mine!" "Not necessarily." -Bernie vs Tom, Miller's Crossing
Justin writes:
With all due respect to the principle of freedom of speech and all that, I think that cypherpunks, and people in general, give far too little respect to words, as if words are a vague, unimportant, and remote link in the chain of causation of acts or failure-to-acts. I don't see anything wrong with Orwell's view that words control the future's view of history. His certainly have.
Words depend greatly on context. The meaning of words here on the Cypherpunks list, is different than their meaning in the New York Times. If someone said "up the chimneys with the inner-city welfare mutants" in the New York Times, there would be mass rioting in the streets. I find this with a lot of my stuff that gets taken from this list and posted in places that I would have written it much differently for, had those places been its original destination. So - what happened to Tim? Can I be the list's new Crusty Retired Engineer now? -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
At 12:58 PM -0700 4/11/04, Eric Cordian wrote:
So - what happened to Tim? Can I be the list's new Crusty Retired Engineer now?
Crusty retired pervert is more like it. ...and, no, I don't want to know what the crust is made of... :-/ Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
participants (4)
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Eric Cordian
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Justin
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Major Variola (ret)
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R. A. Hettinga