RE: Enemy at the Door
Of course you could connect an automated firearm.
Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?
Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location... -Declan On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
Of course you could connect an automated firearm.
Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location...
Nah, just make sure your neighborhood is covered by several community networks like Seattle Wireless, or else put up an illegal packet radio system. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town. Declan McCullagh wrote:
Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location...
-Declan
On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
Of course you could connect an automated firearm.
Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?
-- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
Fortunately I do not lack the ability to comprehend modern English, but I do lack the ability to read into a statement what is not there. Even if your suggestion was intended, that DSL line could be shut down as well, which was the point my response was intended to address. -Declan At 10:45 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town.
Declan McCullagh wrote:
Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location...
-Declan
On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
Of course you could connect an automated firearm.
Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?
-- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
As someone else mentioned, "Seattle Wireless" scenario, or some form of packet radio, or .... Which broadband line would they disconecct? And what would those people think? Gee, the stock market T1 just went down. Anyway, so it's broadcasting 802, and the perps already know all the possible receivers? Now, maybe they could start jamming 802 -- or all the possible frequencies --- 8-) Duh! Declan McCullagh wrote:
Fortunately I do not lack the ability to comprehend modern English, but I do lack the ability to read into a statement what is not there. Even if your suggestion was intended, that DSL line could be shut down as well, which was the point my response was intended to address.
-Declan
At 10:45 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town.
Declan McCullagh wrote:
Yes, but then your clandestine midnight droppers-by could disconnect your DSL service in advance. You'd have to couple your DSLcam with a remote is-it-alive pinging service from a secure location...
-Declan
On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:40:48AM -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
Of course you could connect an automated firearm.
Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?
-- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
-- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town.
Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?" If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:01:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town.
Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?"
If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well).
I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 miles. Given a clear path (clear line of sight) and relatively modest sized directional antennas (not huge suspicious looking dishes) which can be concealed under rf transparent radomes (hidden in an attic for example with appropriate (fiberglass) roofing or siding, or behind a glass picture window with curtains drawn) getting 10 to 20 mile ranges is pretty easy with gain antennas on either end... not rocket science either... and quite hard to spot visually (though of course a spectrum analyzer with good preamps and antennas will find and locate any hidden 802.11 link in no time flat - one cannot radiate rf from a fixed location and not be easily found using common TSCM tools). -- Dave Emery N1PRE, die@die.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2 5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18
On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Dave Emery wrote:
I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 miles.
ONLY with a high gain parabolic. Not with a omni. Further, all it takes to find the other dish is look down that line of site. They're cheap cards, less than $100 each. The 802.11a, which are higher frequency, higher bandwidth came out last month. The AP's are supposed to hit the street on or right after the 15'th of this month. I'm going with 802.11a myself. The 'b' stuff seems a tad to kid toyish to me. YMMV. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 12:31 AM 11/8/2001 -0500, Dave Emery wrote:
On Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:01:10PM -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town.
Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?"
If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well).
I have read reports of people running WiFi links of up to 20 miles. Given a clear path (clear line of sight) and relatively modest sized directional antennas (not huge suspicious looking dishes) which can be concealed under rf transparent radomes (hidden in an attic for example with appropriate (fiberglass) roofing or siding, or behind a glass picture window with curtains drawn) getting 10 to 20 mile ranges is pretty easy with gain antennas on either end... not rocket science either... and quite hard to spot visually (though of course a spectrum analyzer with good preamps and antennas will find and locate any hidden 802.11 link in no time flat - one cannot radiate rf from a fixed location and not be easily found using common TSCM tools).
While I agree that spotting a low process gain, large, signal is straightforward with simple TSCM, locating a low power, high process gain signal (especially one which uses channel estimation techniques prior to transmission, for example "Low probability of intercept communication system," US Pat. No. 5,029,184) can thwart most TSCM tools. steve
Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people. Or the people in rural MN who are putting them up on silos and running a 10 mile radius. Totally depends on your topography. And even with p-p they aren't doing parabolics, more like yagi directionals, which could be just another TV antenna, cut to the harmonic. Gee, maybe they'll start raiding home with TV antennas. Jim Choate wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town.
Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?"
If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well).
-- ____________________________________________________________________
Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind.
Bumper Sticker
The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people.
Don't have to, see the commentary about 'if...directional...' Yagi's won't do that sort of distance either, maybe 3-5 miles. Blipverts (and probably never having actually touched a wireless card) strike again.
Jim Choate wrote:
yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?"
-- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 11:45 PM 11/7/01 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Go tell that to the Seattle/Portland/wherever wireless people. Or the people in rural MN who are putting them up on silos and running a 10 mile radius. Totally depends on your topography. And even with p-p they aren't doing parabolics, more like yagi directionals, which could be just another TV antenna, cut to the harmonic. Gee, maybe they'll start raiding home with TV antennas.
The pages about 'pringle's chip canister yagis' show a piece of plumbing PVC enclosing the final package, a tube about the size of an arm. It doesn't look like a TV antenna, more like the microwave uplinks (Funny that.) from mobile tv vans, though those are usually helical. So the Ghz yagi is readily hidden. The 802.11 hacks claim a good 15 db with a homemade yagi. I think the RF deal is that you can't scale a yagi as far as you can a dish -past some number of segments the yagi doesn't give you more, but a dish keeps on giving (Areceibo for instance...) if you have the space for it and can take the wind.
At 11:01 PM 11/7/2001 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
Duh! Read it again. "802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?" That DSL line could be clear across town.
Not with 802.11 anything will it be 'clear across town'. A few hundred yards w/ 802.11b and maybe a mile with 802.11a. Now if you're talking directional then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to ask "Where does that nifty parabolic point? Why, at that other nifty parabolic. Well, gentlemen, how's 'bout we take 'em both down?"
At 2.4 GHz there is little need for a parabolic to achieve 12dB or more gain. Small, flat, slot and yaggis may be constructed on circuit boards and placed in innocuous enclosures and even hidden in walls.
If you want distance you'll either have to add an illegal final or else use packet or some other mechanism (probably illegaly as well).
10-20 dB amps for 2.4 are readily available and relatively inexpensive. steve
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Steve Schear wrote:
At 2.4 GHz there is little need for a parabolic to achieve 12dB or more gain.
Yes, there is.
Small, flat, slot and yaggis may be constructed on circuit boards and placed in innocuous enclosures and even hidden in walls.
The panel antennas I've seen actually used (they are used in motels and such to 'beam' the sensitivity down the central hall) are lucky if they'll hit the other end of a football field. Yagi's might make it to 3-5 miles, no more.
10-20 dB amps for 2.4 are readily available and relatively inexpensive.
Yep, and illegal as hell if you hook them to a 802.11 anything. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
Of course you could connect an automated firearm.
Think of the opportunity to market dedicated camera + uplink devices... battery powered lest the dark visitors check the outlets? 802.11'd to DSL to a very remote web site?
You'll also need some servo controller for pan/tilt. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (7)
-
Dave Emery -
David Honig -
Declan McCullagh -
Harmon Seaver -
Jim Choate -
Major Variola (ret) -
Steve Schear