Sealand and Experimental Rocketry
Sealand would be a perfect place for a group of suitably motivated persons to attempt to place experimental class rockets with can-sat's into orbit. They could of course apply for a slot in the orbital parking orbits or buy one from one of the S. Pacific islands whose major incomes is sales of same. A more optimal mechanism is put them in a short term parking orbit that decays in about 2 months. Then put another bird up with new keys and potentialy capabilities. Then you wouldn't necessarily need anyone permission to play. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 4:57 PM -0600 2/20/01, Jim Choate wrote:
Sealand would be a perfect place for a group of suitably motivated persons to attempt to place experimental class rockets with can-sat's into orbit. They could of course apply for a slot in the orbital parking orbits or buy one from one of the S. Pacific islands whose major incomes is sales of same. A more optimal mechanism is put them in a short term parking orbit that decays in about 2 months. Then put another bird up with new keys and potentialy capabilities. Then you wouldn't necessarily need anyone permission to play.
Sealand is a _terrible_ launch location. For multiple reasons. Your ignorance is astounding to behold. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:
Sealand is a _terrible_ launch location. For multiple reasons.
Your ignorance is astounding to behold.
Really? You know of another place that is likely to allow you to launch rockets to LEO with the express intent of putting wild-card remailers and such in orbit? You know many countries with the sort of technical infrastructure required for even amateur attempts? While it's true it's latitude and weather aren't optimal for any sort of sustained commercial or government effort but we're not talking about that now are we? It's certainly someplace on the E. coast of the horn of Africa would be ideal I think the S. Africans ban amatuer experimental rocketry (you are aware MOST countries ban amateur rocketry?). No, given the choices it's about optimal. Belize would be a good place as well provded you could get permission. There being a member of the English commonwealth will probably prohibit it. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Choate wrote:
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tim May wrote:
Sealand is a _terrible_ launch location. For multiple reasons.
Your ignorance is astounding to behold.
Really? You know of another place that is likely to allow you to launch rockets to LEO with the express intent of putting wild-card remailers and such in orbit? You know many countries with the sort of technical infrastructure required for even amateur attempts? While it's true it's latitude and weather aren't optimal for any sort of sustained commercial or government effort but we're not talking about that now are we? It's certainly someplace on the E. coast of the horn of Africa would be ideal I think the S. Africans ban amatuer experimental rocketry (you are aware MOST countries ban amateur rocketry?).
South Africa is about as far from the Horn of Africa as New York is from Peru. There have been commercial launches from Kenya, and from offshore platforms in the Indian Ocean. Ken
On Wed, Feb 21, 2001 at 12:17:32PM +0000, Ken Brown wrote:
There have been commercial launches from Kenya, and from offshore platforms in the Indian Ocean.
Right. I recall the company is SeaLaunch (I wrote about them once, a Boeing venture, I believe) and uses an old oil platform they towed there from the Atlantic. SeaLand is not exactly quite as capable. -Declan
Jim Choate wrote:
Sealand would be a perfect place for a group of suitably motivated persons to attempt to place experimental class rockets with can-sat's into orbit.
WHAT??????????????????????? It is at about 52 degrees north, IIRC. If you had high-school physics you'd see the problem with that. It is within the largest concentration of human population on the planet - only a few hundred km from Koln or the Ruhr or Rotterdam & tens of km from or London. It is not in the middle of an ocean, it is in the bloody Thames estuary. It is within sight of thousands of homes and businesses. It is near the busiest shipping lanes in the world. It is near chemical works, oil refineries, and factories. It is downrange of a huge natural gas field with dozens of producing platforms. It is on commercial air routes to the Netherlands and Belgium. It is within 5 minutes flight time of major US military bases. If you are Americo-centric enough to have no conception of the geographical location of Sealand, than imagine a place that shared the WORST factors for launch site selection of Galveston, the Yukon, the Erie Canal, and Chesapeake bay. And only a few hundred miles downwind of the Russian early warning systems in Kaliningrad. Those guys still have ICBMs you know, and they are still scared that you Americans are going to first strike (yes, I know it is nonsense, but that's what some of them think) It might be hard to imagine a less suitable orbital launch site. I suspect if anything like that was tried the British would board the place within hours. If they really thought it was an independent territory (they don't - in fact they think they own it but they just don't want to have to go to the expense of repairing it & don't really care what the inhabitants get up to as long as it doesn't cost them any money) then they would declare war on it. Or rather not, because who declares war any more? People who are willing to bomb Baghdad just to make George Bush look good are hardly likely to hold off from shooting a few techy types in their own back yard in order to save to world from nuclear destruction. If the Brits didn't do it the Americans would - they have enough firepower just over the horizon. We used to have these really cool things called "maps". They help you to visualise where things are. They are really useful sometimes, Or maybe you never leave Texas because you can't find the freeway? Ken (in near shock)
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
WHAT???????????????????????
It is at about 52 degrees north, IIRC. If you had high-school physics you'd see the problem with that.
Closer to 60 if you actuallly check a map. Soluble problem with respect to Lat. There are more issues than simple launch physics involved here. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Choate wrote:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
WHAT???????????????????????
It is at about 52 degrees north, IIRC. If you had high-school physics you'd see the problem with that.
Closer to 60 if you actuallly check a map.
Nope, I was right. (It is around 20 miles from where my mother lives). They have a postal address at Felixstowe, which is a port in Suffolk near the town Ipswich. See the quotes from their website below
Soluble problem with respect to Lat. There are more issues than simple launch physics involved here.
You can say that again. A rocket going into orbit would be pointing east for all the usual reasons & would be heading straight for Russia. A deeply uncool place to make launches from. See Ryan Lackey's comments I quote below - if that's what he thinks about a mortar, what about an ICBM? (which is just a rocket whose orbit intersects the Earth's surface nearby to someone you don't like). Anyway, we aren't talking a production platform here. Sealand is an anti-aircraft gun turret. It isn't really very big. Sticks a long way out of the water, but then you have to in the North Sea (not like those little weeny platforms you get in the Gulf of Mexico :-) Imagine two factory chimneys connected by a deck at the top. If you want to launch from the sea you need a big platform. And you need to put it somewhere else. Ken -------------------------------------------------------- An extract from http://www.fruitsofthesea.demon.co.uk/sealand/factfile.html follows: -------------------------------------------------------- - Sealand is located in the southern part of the North Sea some six miles off the coast of Britain and from sixty-five to one hundred miles from the coasts of France, Belgium, Holland and Germany; Latitude 51.53 N, Longitude 01.28 E (see map). - Within a radius of five hundred miles of Sealand live more than two hundred million people who enjoy some of the highest living standards in the world. This area also encompasses the financial and industrial heart of Europe. - Easy and economical access to Sealand from Europe and Scandanavia is available, since the established ferry routes that ply to and from the United Kingdom pass some three miles from the island, carrying freight and thousands of passengers daily. - Further information may be obtained from: Sealand State Corporation & Information Bureau, SEALAND P.O. Box 3 FELIXSTOWE Suffolk IP11 9SZ United Kingdom -------------------------------------------------------- And from an interview with Ryan Lackey at http://slashdot.org/interviews/00/07/02/160253.shtml -------------------------------------------------------- Placing a warship with mortar in the waters near the UK's major container port would be ... highly unpopular. Placing mortars ashore for long enough to close on target would also inspire a very unfavorable response from the UK military. Any mortar which could hit Sealand from shore could also threaten hundreds of thousands of British citizens. British gun laws, being what they are, and the British experience with mortar attacks on Heathrow being what it is, I would not want to try it.
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001, Ken Brown wrote:
Nope, I was right. (It is around 20 miles from where my mother lives). They have a postal address at Felixstowe, which is a port in Suffolk near the town Ipswich. See the quotes from their website below
Well I'd have to bow since I couldn't find a lat/long on Sealand or Havenco and I'm not sure of their exact location other than N. Sea.
A rocket going into orbit would be pointing east for all the usual reasons & would be heading straight for Russia.
Bullshit, We're talking AMATEUR ROCKETS here folks. Beside, irrespective of the actual size of the rocket it will be in LEO way before it gets to CCCP. Clearly you folks have no clue to the distinction between government, commercial, amateur.
A deeply uncool place to make launches from.
Russia, I agree. Europe is uncool. Hell the Germans outlawed amateur rocketry in the late 30's and haven't looked back once.
Anyway, we aren't talking a production platform here. Sealand is an anti-aircraft gun turret. It isn't really very big. Sticks a long way out of the water, but then you have to in the North Sea (not like those little weeny platforms you get in the Gulf of Mexico :-) Imagine two factory chimneys connected by a deck at the top.
The Gulf is deeper than the North Sea and I'd bet the rigs we got out here are just as big.
If you want to launch from the sea you need a big platform. And you need to put it somewhere else.
No, you need a boat. Sealand is more than sufficient for putting a Amateur rocket up. Hell, I could fire one from my back yard as far as that goes. Though I think the launch tower might give somebody a clue. While the rest of you folks sit around telling yourself the same old matra, "It can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done." We're going to do it. ____________________________________________________________________ Before a larger group can see the virtue of an idea, a smaller group must first understand it. "Stranger Suns" George Zebrowski The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Choate wrote:
While the rest of you folks sit around telling yourself the same old matra, "It can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done." We're going to do it.
So why don't you shut the fuck up an do it already. Take a long trip to Sealand, implement all this good stuff and tell us about it when you come back. Not now. -- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
On 21 Feb 2001, at 17:51, Sunder wrote:
Jim Choate wrote:
While the rest of you folks sit around telling yourself the same old matra, "It can't be done. It can't be done. It can't be done." We're going to do it.
Do you feel better now?
So why don't you shut the fuck up an do it already. Take a long trip to Sealand, implement all this good stuff and tell us about it when you come back. Not now.
-- ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------
participants (8)
-
Declan McCullagh -
Jim Choate -
Jim Choate -
Ken Brown -
real＠freenet.ab.ca -
Sunder -
Tim May -
Tom