"One former senior F.B.I. official described the investigation this way: "When you send a whole lot of agents out after a whole lot of people, they're going to find some who committed various crimes. It's just inevitable."
(The article focuses on the fact that only about 1% of the 1200 detainees are suspected of terrorist involvement. It's a crime that they still haven't gotten due process, and we haven't seen their names...) Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume
On Thursday, November 29, 2001, at 09:26 AM, Adam Shostack wrote:
"One former senior F.B.I. official described the investigation this way: "When you send a whole lot of agents out after a whole lot of people, they're going to find some who committed various crimes. It's just inevitable."
(The article focuses on the fact that only about 1% of the 1200 detainees are suspected of terrorist involvement. It's a crime that they still haven't gotten due process, and we haven't seen their names...)
I save most of my rage for other fora (forums), but America's rapid move to a kind of police state has been faster than even most of us expected: * warrants no longer needed to invade houses, tap phones, tap computer lines...only the say-so of a minor bureaucrat. * "freezing of assets" (which I call a "taking," subject to due process) on the word of a government official, with no trial, no review * unlimited detention without charges being filed, courtesy of abuse of the "material witness" process * suspension of due process for "terrorists" (funny, how do they know someone is a terrorist until a trial has been held?) * military tribunals for "terrorists" (ditto the above point) * many cases of folks being stopped for "inappropriate praying" (Houston), "inappropriate reading material" ("Hayduke Lives!" novel), taking photos of dams (California tourists), etc. Most of these police state measures were rushed into law, or declared to be an Executive Order, without any consideration of the constitutionality or the long-term implications. These laws can and will be used after the 911/Afghanistan thing is over to suppress dissident groups, to arrest and hold people like Bell without charges being filed, and to wiretap and bug many more people. Congress spent a year debating the "definition of what "is" is" and yet rushed through these Orwellian measures without serious debate. See the comments of Congressman Ron Paul in the .sig quote below. Every Congressman who voted "Yea" on USA-PATRIOT deserves to be strung up from a lamp post. --Tim May "They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote." --Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the USA-PATRIOT Bill before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police state
-- Some time ago I said that a short victorious war in a place far away, fought by volunteers, would not do too much damage to liberty. And when victory was well in hand, they shut down not merely havenco, but the entire internet access of Somalia, causing very serious damage to the cypherpunk agenda. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG ilM2NBMZSxgRlYUxLl2tjKbAWBKaetmVDjJLrkHb 4Qp/+5OCH1rc3D5TChs3SNEQa/RDoDehZWrm7Z9i5
On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
And when victory was well in hand, they shut down not merely havenco,
Looks OK to me: Tracing route to havenco.com [207.106.3.14] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms r01.fl.datapacket.net [208.195.14.225] 2 <10 ms 10 ms 10 ms loopback0.gw8.orl1.alter.net [137.39.8.117] 3 20 ms 40 ms 20 ms 165.at-1-0-0.xr1.atl1.alter.net [152.63.86.170] 4 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms 100.at-1-0-0.tr1.atl1.alter.net [146.188.232.82] 5 20 ms 31 ms 30 ms 109.at-5-0-0.tr1.dca6.alter.net [146.188.141.58] 6 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms 0.so-4-0-0.xr1.dca6.alter.net [152.63.11.102] 7 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms 0.so-1-3-0.xl1.dca6.alter.net [152.63.35.114] 8 30 ms 31 ms 30 ms pos6-0.br3.dca6.alter.net [152.63.38.117] 9 30 ms 30 ms 40 ms 204.255.174.74 10 30 ms 60 ms 31 ms mae-east-gsr.dc-core.netaxs.net [207.106.31.26] 11 120 ms 280 ms 310 ms mae-east.dc-core.netaxs.net [207.106.31.29] 12 30 ms 30 ms 40 ms dc-l3.dc-core.fddi0-0-100m.netaxs.net [207.106.127.102] 13 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms phl-l3.phl-core.h3-0-45m.netaxs.net [207.106.127.129] 14 30 ms 30 ms 40 ms l3-core1-oc3.sdfc.phl.netaxs.net [207.106.3.246] 15 60 ms 41 ms 40 ms core1-cnsh-gige-1.cnsh.phl.netaxs.net [207.106.0.10] 16 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms ns1.havenco.com [207.106.3.14] Trace complete. The www site is up too. Possibly you misunderstood their temporary outage?
--digsig James A. Donald
-- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
Think they'd host a CDR node? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Jim Choate wrote:
Think they'd host a CDR node?
Is there a *need* for another CDR node? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
That traceroute looks suspiciously like it's going to Philadelphia. (Second prize, TWO nameservers in Philadelphia...) The www site's there also, safely and reliably on dry land. However, if you do a traceroute to Ryan's remailer.havenco.com, you'll see a path that goes quickly to London, to "unknown.level3.net", then quickly to "havenco-gw", then with much more delay to 213.169.220.162, then with similar delay to remailer.havenco.com. Havenco's talked for a while about metastasizing, putting servers in a bunch of places for reliable fast performance for non-critical data and mainly keeping the critical database parts and more paranoid material over in Sealand. Certainly they'd want to have basic advertising material and some of their DNS mirrors on dry land. Also, it's interesting that the whois record for havenco.com is registered from Cyprus. At 11:00 PM 11/29/2001 -0600, measl@mfn.org wrote:
On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:
And when victory was well in hand, they shut down not merely havenco,
Looks OK to me:
Tracing route to havenco.com [207.106.3.14]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 <10 ms <10 ms <10 ms r01.fl.datapacket.net [208.195.14.225] 2 <10 ms 10 ms 10 ms loopback0.gw8.orl1.alter.net [137.39.8.117] 3 20 ms 40 ms 20 ms 165.at-1-0-0.xr1.atl1.alter.net [152.63.86.170] 4 10 ms 20 ms 20 ms 100.at-1-0-0.tr1.atl1.alter.net [146.188.232.82] 5 20 ms 31 ms 30 ms 109.at-5-0-0.tr1.dca6.alter.net [146.188.141.58] 6 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms 0.so-4-0-0.xr1.dca6.alter.net [152.63.11.102] 7 30 ms 30 ms 30 ms 0.so-1-3-0.xl1.dca6.alter.net [152.63.35.114] 8 30 ms 31 ms 30 ms pos6-0.br3.dca6.alter.net [152.63.38.117] 9 30 ms 30 ms 40 ms 204.255.174.74 10 30 ms 60 ms 31 ms mae-east-gsr.dc-core.netaxs.net [207.106.31.26] 11 120 ms 280 ms 310 ms mae-east.dc-core.netaxs.net [207.106.31.29] 12 30 ms 30 ms 40 ms dc-l3.dc-core.fddi0-0-100m.netaxs.net [207.106.127.102] 13 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms phl-l3.phl-core.h3-0-45m.netaxs.net [207.106.127.129] 14 30 ms 30 ms 40 ms l3-core1-oc3.sdfc.phl.netaxs.net [207.106.3.246] 15 60 ms 41 ms 40 ms core1-cnsh-gige-1.cnsh.phl.netaxs.net [207.106.0.10] 16 40 ms 40 ms 40 ms ns1.havenco.com [207.106.3.14]
Trace complete.
The www site is up too. Possibly you misunderstood their temporary outage?
participants (6)
-
Adam Shostack -
Bill Stewart -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
Jim Choate -
measl＠mfn.org -
Tim May