Lne is on dialup? Wow. Anyhow, I'm a newbie who has been lurking a while. Privacy concerns and what intelligent people think about it is what got me on this list.With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise... The sheen on the illusion of liberty here will wear thin soon, IMHO.People think that they enjoy liberty here because they can buy a gun. Yes the libertarians can claim that the guns protect them, and Afganistan and Iraq have been demonstrations of how it prevents a hostile takeover (just like someones sig about an RPG a day...) What good does it do inside the USA unless civil war breaks out? How does it protect the war protestors in NYC or those in Miami? I don't oppose guns, but just want to point out that the govt has been rapidly diminishing our civil liberties despite all the guns... As far as I'm concerned, true anonymity in finacial affairs (and secure communication channels) is the only real method open to peacefully combat the all seeing, all powerful government. I'm sure the interest in this will first focus on things like e-gold when common people see their life savings evaporate as the dollar continues its plunge. Any one with thoughts on this? Of course only a small percentage of the general public will be bright enough to see that a fiat currency does not last forever... and is dependent on the ever increasing projection of power by a nation state, which is not a stable sort of situation.The majority of them will want federal bailouts etc. What I'm curious about is digital currencies. Can anyone speak about the Digital Monetary Trust or DMT? I'm sorry I have not read the last upteen years of mail archives, but I'm interested in what people think NOW about Orlin Grabbe, DMT, e-gold etc. Anyone with anonymous or otherwise stories? People who've been part of the battle? Sorry for the ramble, but the most interesting comment recently was about David Chaums patents expiring soon... any word on its potential impact? Peace and liberty.
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote:
With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise...
That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world?
As far as I'm concerned, true anonymity in finacial affairs (and secure communication channels) is the only real method open to peacefully combat the all seeing, all powerful government.
You can't combat an all-powerful government, because it's all-powerful. And you can't manage anonimity against an all-seeing government, because it is all-seeing. -- avva
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote:
With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise...
That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world?
It's not silly at all: look again. He said "becoming". And it is. Fast. It's *long* past time for the inhabitants here to have taken up arms and blown holes in a *lot* of Federal heads. Just a few hundred dead federal goons, spread over a relatively short period (~6 months), where the attacks were obviously coordinated, made against officers enforcing particularly rancid unconstitutional laws (say the federal tax code), and without discoverable perpetrators, would result in an almost instantaneous shortage of officers available to enforce such uncontitutional laws - the survivors would simply refuse. Long fucking overdue. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org Father, you are a great and mighty God. Help our governments to remember the lessons of our history and to appreciate the purpose of your son Jesus. Teach our representatives not to be so arrogant as to speak in one way, but doing another, for surely this not the way of truth. Help us to understand that your will is not death but life, not the darkness of hatred but the light of friendship in Christ. In the name of Jesus we pray. Amen. Merle Harton, Jr.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10-Dec-03, at 11:10 PM, J.A. Terranson wrote:
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
Just a few hundred dead federal goons, spread over a relatively short period (~6 months), where the attacks were obviously coordinated, made against officers enforcing particularly rancid unconstitutional laws (say the federal tax code), and without discoverable perpetrators, would result in an almost instantaneous shortage of officers available to enforce such uncontitutional laws - the survivors would simply refuse.
Long fucking overdue.
Of course the little thing you are overlooking is that if this would happen the Spinmeisters would manage to turn it into another terrorist treat (which in a strict sense it is) and yank even more civil rights. And knowing the majority of people: they just happily go along. Or differently: This would backfire.... Badly. - -- Michael On the internet, no one can see the meds you take. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP9f1N2lCnxcrW2uuEQIhdgCffEQLxYuHw5uUsUNWOiGcbksx/1EAoInz XvbIEIQ6YfSU34g/xsRT+OnU =wON0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 10:10:03PM -0600, J.A. Terranson wrote:
With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise...
That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world?
It's not silly at all: look again. He said "becoming". And it is. Fast.
No, it's silly because he said "becoming". Had he said "is", it would've been criminally stupid. For example, the US has a long, long, long, long way to go before becoming anything remotely like North Korea, in terms of totalitarianism. Of course, North Korea is a radical example; there are many countries much more totalitarian than the US and extremely likely to remain so in any foreseeable future. All the Patriot Acts and increased surveillance and whatever else has been happening in the US lately is a drop in the ocean of difference between the US and those other countries, in that respect. -- avva
This reminds me of that old saw about the fellow who falls off a 100 story building: "Floor 75, everythings still okay" "Floor 50, still lookin good" "Floor 25, situation nominal" "Floor 5, feeling fine" Unfortunately, there were some communication issues after he past floor 1. We're still waiting for his final report. Article III is the only one left in the bill of rights that is still adhered to. The others get dragged out every once in awhile, like an old general who has outlived his usefulness and is now just a relic of past glory. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anatoly Vorobey" <mellon@pobox.com> To: <cypherpunks@lne.com> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:34 AM Subject: Re: (No Subject)
No, it's silly because he said "becoming". Had he said "is", it would've been criminally stupid.
For example, the US has a long, long, long, long way to go before becoming anything remotely like North Korea, in terms of totalitarianism. Of course, North Korea is a radical example; there are many countries much more totalitarian than the US and extremely likely to remain so in any foreseeable future. All the Patriot Acts and increased surveillance and whatever else has been happening in the US lately is a drop in the ocean of difference between the US and those other countries, in that respect.
-- avva
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote:
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote:
With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise...
That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world?
It's not silly at all: look again. He said "becoming".
Agreed. I recall watching the events unfold in Tienamin Square all those years ago on TV, and I thought to myself at the time, within 20 years, China will be the last free place on earth. Clocks ticking, and for once, I might have actually been right. Now that the US has no "other" to compare it self to, it is free to lock it all down with the best totalitarian system in history. There are TRENDS, you see, and the TREND is toward total government domination of all aspects of life. This is the trend, and there is not only no signs of any reversal in the trend, it's building momentum like crazy, down-hill train on greased rails.
At 01:19 PM 12/11/2003 -0500, cubic-dog <dog3@eruditium.org> wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote:
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote:
With the USA becoming the world's most totalitarian state in disguise...
That's a pretty silly thing to say. Sure you don't want to educate yourself on those other states in the world?
It's not silly at all: look again. He said "becoming".
Agreed.
I recall watching the events unfold in Tienamin Square all those years ago on TV, and I thought to myself at the time, within 20 years, China will be the last free place on earth.
Clocks ticking, and for once, I might have actually been right.
Now that the US has no "other" to compare it self to, it is free to lock it all down with the best totalitarian system in history.
There are TRENDS, you see, and the TREND is toward total government domination of all aspects of life. This is the trend, and there is not only no signs of any reversal in the trend, it's building momentum like crazy, down-hill train on greased rails.
You are right in noticing the one way trend here. Funny thing is, this failed Amerikan political system seems to suggest that voting for the "other official party" will correct the imbalance. All I can say is that during Clinton/Reno, civil liberties advocates were still quite busy fighting back totalitarian BS being inserted here and there. Then Bush comes along, and ups the ante, now that They've got their brand new boogeyman of "terrorism" to scare all the proles. Who could have thought it could have been worse than Clinton-Reno, and then we now see the horror of Bush-Asscroft to prove us wrong. The Amerikan system has failed, all the so-called checks-and-balances have been subverted. No band-aid reform can pretend to correct the thorough, systemic corruption and perversion of justice which now exists within the govmint of the united Slaves of Amerika. Only total revolution (whatever that means) will fix the problem. From a systemic standpoint, look at the linchpins that hold this slimy gangsterism in place: THE MEDIA (principally TV), and the POWERLORDS (govt-corporate plutocracy). The media, in covering up the main game plan of the plutocrats, would be an obvious logical target of applied pressure, by whatever means possible. The so-called powerlords, could be individually targetted so that they are less cocky about their personal power and physical safety. How far will it have to go? Will we just sit back passively, and watch our "Masters" increasingly lord over us, in our homes, in our courts, everywhere? Will we just watch as they build the Beast databases of DNA, etc etc etc and track us like lab rats. Will we send our children off to die for their empire, while those remaining "at home" are enslaved in meaningless, subserviant work? Then it all comes down to figuring out who the REAL TERRORISTS are. Who has the power to truly oppress, enslave, and murder you? A sad day indeed, when Asscrofts and Bush's are more terrifying than Bin Ladens, et al. We need citizen's grand juries convened under their OWN declared jurisdiction of We The People and the Constitution, and the immediate arrest and trial of those responsible for this fascist nightmare. The "Potomic Trials"... like Nuremburg II... -Max ------------------------------------------------ A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government. --George Washington ------------------------------------------------- Smash The State! mailing list home http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/smashthestate ---
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:27AM +0100, edo wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, true anonymity in finacial affairs (and secure communication channels) is the only real method open to peacefully combat the all seeing [etc.]
We have anonymity in Web browsing (more or less, thanks to Lance & co). It's not NSA-proof, but it's probably subpoena-proof. We have anonymity in email thanks to remailers (to the extent they're still around). We have anonymity in publishing, and to some extent, document retrieval, thanks to Freenet. We have anonymity in one-way communications/dead drops thanks to remailers gatewayed to Usenet newsgroups (if any still even do that). We do not have anonymity in financial transactions. In fact, we have less anonymity than we did a decade ago, thanks to amendments to the Bank Secrecy Act and the USA Patriot Act. And the OECD's efforts in this area too. Instead of a Chaum or Brands payment system, we ended up with ebay/Paypal -- which has made clear its policy of intimate cooperation with police. Strong anonymity in online financial transactions is something like a linchpin in deploying better strong anonymity solutions in other areas because people like to get paid for developing and maintaining such systems, especially if they are in any way controversial. The problem IMHO is obtaining an interface with the banking/financial system, probably the most-regulated industry in the U.S. -Declan
On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 04:20:20PM -0600, Declan McCullagh wrote:
We have anonymity in Web browsing (more or less, thanks to Lance & co). It's not NSA-proof, but it's probably subpoena-proof.
We have anonymity in email thanks to remailers (to the extent they're still around).
We have anonymity in publishing, and to some extent, document retrieval, thanks to Freenet.
We have anonymity in one-way communications/dead drops thanks to remailers gatewayed to Usenet newsgroups (if any still even do that).
alt.anonymous.messages has a healthy amount of traffic. Google Groups says they have a bit more than 200 messages in it on December 9, for example. I assume nearly all of it is from remailers posting to Usenet (or remailers sending mail to mail2news gateways), otherwise there's little point of using it. -- avva
-- On 10 Dec 2003 at 18:22, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
alt.anonymous.messages has a healthy amount of traffic. Google Groups says they have a bit more than 200 messages in it on December 9, for example. I assume nearly all of it is from remailers posting to Usenet (or remailers sending mail to mail2news gateways), otherwise there's little point of using it.
You do not need to use remailers to take advantage of alt.anonymous.messages. If someone posts directly to alt.anonymous. messages, still the adversary cannot tell who he is posting to. (Assuming his recipient sets his newsagent to always download all new messages) --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG zMY49IWQvar+nBxNmFDbRihngyDWi30UIYQY9NAh 4rVDPJdqGIjPUeycOPjbn3AbW2+7fZ0HFzy2xQEeX
On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 02:07:33PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
-- On 10 Dec 2003 at 18:22, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
alt.anonymous.messages has a healthy amount of traffic. Google Groups says they have a bit more than 200 messages in it on December 9, for example. I assume nearly all of it is from remailers posting to Usenet (or remailers sending mail to mail2news gateways), otherwise there's little point of using it.
You do not need to use remailers to take advantage of alt.anonymous.messages. If someone posts directly to alt.anonymous. messages, still the adversary cannot tell who he is posting to. (Assuming his recipient sets his newsagent to always download all new messages)
Oh, that's true of course; but the adversary would be able to know that you posted something (given that he's monitoring your traffic). That's already something, and frequently more than you'd want to give away. I did inspect a few random messages and they all came from remailers. -- avva
-- On 9 Dec 2003 at 0:47, edo wrote:
What I'm curious about is digital currencies. Can anyone speak about the Digital Monetary Trust or DMT? I'm sorry I have not read the last upteen years of mail archives, but I'm interested in what people think NOW about Orlin Grabbe, DMT, e-gold etc.
An e-gold account is a gold demoninated, offshore account. Same for Pecunix, which has been more recently audited, has better security provisions -- it provides for PGP based login, etc. It is less widely accepted than e-gold, but provides a better deal. Did I mention it has been more recently audited. And just in case you missed it, e-gold has not been audited for a while. None of these accounts provide Chaumian anonymity, which means they can track identity, which means they must track identity, which costs them. However one can withdraw, and deposit, physical gold, which actually is anonymous, and provides a physical mix, since one gold atom looks very like another. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG gFHr0U97wM1IeLX9SRCadMi2qoG+8FaaFXSdMlnB 41xSX7dI0Au/V2pVkuLX2tYRDvsRZ76g3jqqc7NYe
participants (9)
-
Anatoly Vorobey -
baudmax23ï¼ earthlink.net -
cubic-dog -
Declan McCullagh -
edo -
J.A. Terranson -
James A. Donald -
Michael Kalus -
Pete Capelli