CDR: Re: police IR searches to Supremes
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000, Richard Fiero wrote:
One could argue that all electromagnetic radiation is in the public domain and receivable. However it is illegal to have equipment capable of receiving cell phone conversations because the rights of the telephone company and the rights of the conversants could be violated.
That is one part of legislation I find completely unbelievable. I view it as a case of people having far too high expectations of privacy which shouldn't be kept up artificially.
Sampo Syreeni <decoy@iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university
No expectation of privacy is too high. Just as the police are "artificially" allowed to spy on people by being funded through public monies that allow them manpower and equipment, they can be "artificially" commanded to piss off. One artifice deserves another. Allowing selective use of technology does seem to be a bad idea - it's usually the authorities who are selected as allowed and anyone else incarcerated after being economically destroyed. If we allow IR imaging without restriction there will be legal precendents required and even some economic benefits. The fact of a higher than average electric bill or a heat source unlike heat sources in similar buildings must be found to be evidence of nothing beyond the use of electricity and subsequent generation of heat. Zero justification for a search warrant. The benny will be a whole new industry to make clothing with a high metallic content. This would also work as a counter to the mm wave imaging that has been around since the 80's and seems to be going mainstream. Mike
I'm having a very difficult time comprehending how plant lights could even remotely be construed as "probable cause" -- don't the courts have any idea of the millions of little old ladies (and whoever) who use plant lights for their house plants? Or of the multitudes who use them to jump start gardens every Spring, or the many who actually grow veggies hydroponically in their basement? -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS Systems Librarian Arrowhead Library System Virginia, MN (218) 741-3840 hseaver@arrowhead.lib.mn.us http://harmon.arrowhead.lib.mn.us
At 3:10 PM -0400 9/28/00, Harmon Seaver wrote:
I'm having a very difficult time comprehending how plant lights could even remotely be construed as "probable cause" -- don't the courts have any idea of the millions of little old ladies (and whoever) who use plant lights for their house plants? Or of the multitudes who use them to jump start gardens every Spring, or the many who actually grow veggies hydroponically in their basement?
Beside the point, from their point of view. "Probable cause" is a an excuse, not a requirement to act. Meaning, if they subpoena the records of Alice's Hydroponics or Bob's Lamp Shop and discover that the purchases were made by a little old lady, they don't _have_ to launch a S.W.A.T. raid and call in the napalm strikes. But if they cross-correlate the list they get from the subpoenaed records with other lists they have, they may find some ripe targets for a raid. Similar to what happened here in Santa Cruz County, where a Soquel-based hydroponic company had its parking lot staked out by narcs with binoculars. Likely-looking perps (long hair, VW vans, whatever) entering the store had their license plates recorded. The home addresses were quickly found. A few months later the electric company had its billing records subpoened. Those who had shown a nonseasonal jump in electricity usage following their visits to the hydroponics store were considered for raids. Several folks were raided. (Apparently no shoot outs with the narcs, as these were mostly hippy-dippy potheads, no doubt afraid of having babyklling assault weapons.) By the way, imagine what Big Bro will be able to do by further cross-correlating these lists with lists of rifle owners (courtesy of our new gun registration laws), and with other records. No wonder Oracle is selling so much software to LEAs. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Tim May wrote:
At 3:10 PM -0400 9/28/00, Harmon Seaver wrote:
I'm having a very difficult time comprehending how plant lights could even remotely be construed as "probable cause" -- don't the courts have any idea of the millions of little old ladies (and whoever) who use plant lights for their house plants? Or of the multitudes who use them to jump start gardens every Spring, or the many who actually grow veggies hydroponically in their basement?
Beside the point, from their point of view.
"Probable cause" is a an excuse, not a requirement to act. Meaning, if they subpoena the records of Alice's Hydroponics or Bob's Lamp Shop and discover that the purchases were made by a little old lady, they don't _have_ to launch a S.W.A.T. raid and call in the napalm strikes.
It has not stopped them in the past. Here in Oregon, the local LEAs were caught using illegal wiretaps to listen in on the local hydroponics dealer. (I never heard what became of that case. probably swept under the carpet like so many others around here.) Of course, this is the city that was sending information about undesirables to the JDL. [snip]
(Apparently no shoot outs with the narcs, as these were mostly hippy-dippy potheads, no doubt afraid of having babyklling assault weapons.)
They go after pot growers because few of them shoot back. (Unlike dealers in harder substances.) With the seizure laws, these raids become a high income - low risk form of fund raising for the department.
By the way, imagine what Big Bro will be able to do by further cross-correlating these lists with lists of rifle owners (courtesy of our new gun registration laws), and with other records. No wonder Oracle is selling so much software to LEAs.
Of course, if you look at Oracle's license fees, they are going to be lucky if they can buy bullets after Oracle's sales people get done with them... alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
At 03:10 PM 9/28/00 -0400, Harmon Seaver wrote:
I'm having a very difficult time comprehending how plant lights could even remotely be construed as "probable cause" -- don't the courts have any idea of the millions of little old ladies (and whoever) who use plant lights for their house plants? Or of the multitudes who use them to jump start gardens every Spring, or the many who actually grow veggies hydroponically in their basement?
Look at the economics. If you shoot a few innocent hispanic kids, even a millionaire or two, and pay out a few mill in compensation, you still get to grab all that other loot, plus the fed fund$ you get for free.
On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Harmon Seaver wrote:
I'm having a very difficult time comprehending how plant lights could even remotely be construed as "probable cause" -- don't the courts have any idea of the millions of little old ladies (and whoever) who use plant lights for their house plants? Or of the multitudes who use them to jump start gardens every Spring, or the many who actually grow veggies hydroponically in their basement?
Well, considering that race seems to constitute probable cause, too... Sampo Syreeni <decoy@iki.fi>, aka decoy, student/math/Helsinki university
participants (6)
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Alan Olsen -
David Honig -
Harmon Seaver -
Michael Motyka -
Sampo A Syreeni -
Tim May