Israel's control of the U.S. -- and debunking rumors
I just did a lexis-nexis search on: "Jewish people control America and the Americans know it" AND date aft 9/10/2001 Eric Cordian's claim is false. There is a discussion of that alleged quote in what appears to be the editorial pages ofthe Omaha World-Herald on October 1, 2001 -- two days before Cordian claims Sharon said it. Did Cordian's source get the date wrong but the quote right? Well, here's an excerpt from that discussion:
With reference to Bruce Malina's question (Oct. 27 Pulse) as to why Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's statement to Foreign Minister Shimon Peres wasn't reported in the U.S. media: The answer is that it is difficult to believe that any Israeli leader could be so stupid as to say, "We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." Mr. Malina uses a very suspect source, the Washington Report of Oct. 3. The Washington Report is a monthly magazine influenced by Andy Kilgore, who had been U.S. ambassador to several Arab countries. This magazine provides the most obsessive pro-Arab and anti-Israeli reading in the United States. An example of its bias is an article in its April-May 1992 issue that suggests that John F. Kennedy was assassinated by the Mossad so that Lyndon Johnson, who was considered to be pro-Israel, could become president. <<<
So how does Israel, in turn, show its reliability as a friend to the United States? To answer that question, we turn to an Oct. 3 report from the Palestinian Information Center in occupied Jerusalem. According to this report, an argument broke out during a recent Israeli Cabinet session between Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign minister, Shimon Peres. Peres had warned Sharon that if
The quote also appears in an Oct. 13 bylined article in The Tallahassee Democrat: they didn't heed America's request for a cease-fire with the Palestinians it would endanger Israeli interests and turn the United States against them. At which point, a furious Sharon reportedly told Peres, "Every time we do something, you tell me that America will do this or do that. I want to tell you something very clear. Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." <<< No other newspapers matched that search phrase. Whatever Sharon's true feelings, the provenance of that quote seems especially dubious. If you believe otherwise, I have some 1,000:1 compression software to sell you. -Declan On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 04:24:09PM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
Eric Cordian[SMTP:emc@artifact.psychedelic.net] wrote:
"I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." --Ariel Sharon October 3, 2001
Eric:
I don't recall hearing about this remark on the news at the time, and I suspect I would have. A Google search turns up a number of cites, but they are all on white supremacist or anti-Isreal sites. The original source is the Islamic Association for Palestine site: http://www.iap.org. The message is archived at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iapinfo/message/2132
Are there any major media citations in any country? If not, I suspect that this is a manufactured quote, like the ones we saw a few years ago where Janet Reno was alleged to indicate that Christians weren't good citizens.
Regardless of what Sharon may or may not believe, I don't think he could have said this without the major media jumping all over it, in the way that Bush recently got pinged for referring to the people of Pakistan as 'Pakis' (a racial slur in Britain).
Of course, one could take the self-fullfiling viewpoint that the fact that this quote only appears in extreme fringe publications is simply proof of total Jewish control of the major media. I prefer to apply Occam's Razor.
Peter Trei
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Declan writes:
Eric Cordian's claim is false. There is a discussion of that alleged quote in what appears to be the editorial pages ofthe Omaha World-Herald on October 1, 2001 -- two days before Cordian claims Sharon said it.
Did Cordian's source get the date wrong but the quote right? Well, here's an excerpt from that discussion:
With reference to Bruce Malina's question (Oct. 27 Pulse) as to why Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's statement to Foreign Minister Shimon Peres wasn't reported in the U.S. media: The answer is that it is difficult to believe that any Israeli leader could be so stupid as to say, "We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." Mr. Malina uses a very suspect source, the Washington Report of Oct. 3.
OK, I'll bite. How did the Omaha World Herald on October 1, quote the Washington Report from October 3, in response to a reader question of October 27? Also, he doesn't debunk the quote. He just expresses his opinion that no Israeli leader could be so stupid, and continues merrily on to say that one magazine that reported the remark is "influenced" by Arabs.
The quote also appears in an Oct. 13 bylined article in The Tallahassee Democrat:
So how does Israel, in turn, show its reliability as a friend to the United States? To answer that question, we turn to an Oct. 3 report from the Palestinian Information Center in occupied Jerusalem. According to this report, an argument broke out during a recent Israeli Cabinet session between Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign minister, Shimon Peres. Peres had warned Sharon that if they didn't heed America's request for a cease-fire with the Palestinians it would endanger Israeli interests and turn the United States against them. At which point, a furious Sharon reportedly told Peres, "Every time we do something, you tell me that America will do this or do that. I want to tell you something very clear. Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
If it appeared in a bylined article in a mainstream American newspaper, and everyone involved has not been fired, and no retraction has been issued, many months later, I would tend to believe that the authenticity of the quote is not in question.
Whatever Sharon's true feelings, the provenance of that quote seems especially dubious. If you believe otherwise, I have some 1,000:1 compression software to sell you.
I'll pass on the 1,000:1 compression software, but I'm pretty sure about the quote. Anyone in Israel care to confirm or deny? -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
At 03:46 PM 1/11/2002 -0800, Eric Cordian wrote:
OK, I'll bite. How did the Omaha World Herald on October 1, quote the Washington Report from October 3, in response to a reader question of October 27?
See the followup message with the exact text of the articles that I sent do you and the list. It's over 40KB, so while you received it, majordomo bounced it (perhaps the lne.com admin will approve).
Also, he doesn't debunk the quote. He just expresses his opinion that no Israeli leader could be so stupid, and continues merrily on to say that one magazine that reported the remark is "influenced" by Arabs.
True, but it's a pretty extraordinary quote that seems to have allegedly taken place in a private meeting; extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, no?
If it appeared in a bylined article in a mainstream American newspaper, and everyone involved has not been fired, and no retraction has been issued, many months later, I would tend to believe that the authenticity of the quote is not in question.
Your faith in the American small-town journalistic establishment is heartening, but probably misplaced. -Declan
Declan writes:
OK, I'll bite. How did the Omaha World Herald on October 1, quote the Washington Report from October 3, in response to a reader question of October 27?
See the followup message with the exact text of the articles that I sent do you and the list. It's over 40KB, so while you received it, majordomo bounced it (perhaps the lne.com admin will approve).
In the stuff you sent me, the part you claim was written two days before the alleged Sharon October 3 quote is under a big title saying... Copyright 2001 The Omaha World-Herald Company Omaha World-Herald November 1, 2001, Thursday SUNRISE EDITION Unless I'm missing something here, your point that I have been proven wrong because something was written about the Sharon quote two days before it was supposed to have been said is void. Also, the text you pasted which said that the quote could not possibly have been true, and that the source was biased, was a pro-Israel letter to the editor, criticizing someone identified as a theology professor who apparently mentioned the Sharon quote in something printed earlier. Yes, the quote is extrordinary. Yes, Sharon is a nut. That he shares with bin Laden the fantasy that the Jews control America is no huge surprise. Do you have anything else to add? -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
If you've been to Israel you would know that statements like that attributed to Sharon are fairly common. It's part of the nation's cultural hyperbole to overstate with ironic humor the mixed message sent to Israel by the US and by Israel to the US. Samples: "The US needs us more than we need them." "Jews in America wouldn't survive without Israel to protect them." "Without Israel the US would have to invent its own enemies." "American Jews have no place to call their own except Israel." "The US would have little to hate if not for Israel." "Israel's nation building helps the US warn Afro-Americans." And many very vulgar, very funny variations. US immigrants are shocked at the very idea of hard-earned superiority, coming late to black humor of the your home is our homeland game (rather forgetting the US hard-fought precursor to steal America and impose leastworthy European subculture; thankfully being slowly upgraded by the Mayan and Asian influx).
-- On 11 Jan 2002, at 20:17, John Young wrote:
If you've been to Israel you would know that statements like that attributed to Sharon are fairly common [...]
"The US needs us more than we need them."
"Jews in America wouldn't survive without Israel to protect them."
[..]
"American Jews have no place to call their own except Israel."
The examples you so accurately cite do not sound like the words attributed to Sharon. Rather, they sound like the direct opposite of the words attributed to Sharon. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG lJTCvRqLBP1vN+IyrxkXa6NZWZnzZIZCaUz6/nhF 4apBpbYXB8C2tUFZhgGPAcy1/2hh62vEOZpLVGcR8
-- On 11 Jan 2002, at 20:17, John Young wrote:
If you've been to Israel you would know that statements like that attributed to Sharon are fairly common [...]
"The US needs us more than we need them."
"Jews in America wouldn't survive without Israel to protect them."
[..]
"American Jews have no place to call their own except Israel."
The examples you so accurately cite do not sound like the words attributed to Sharon. Rather, they sound like the direct opposite of the words attributed to Sharon. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG bBgSYyYWWmnE8UKuskgv8NmjflXZ7hXN/H4QMCr 433AComb2BwwqxcgikzzCPMIF3lz8m8wi9FI0I2Wk
At 3:46 PM -0800 on 1/11/02, Eric Cordian wrote:
Also, he doesn't debunk the quote.
Woops. There you go again, another "prove a negative". Ignorantum is bliss, yes, Britney? Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
RAH writes:
Also, he doesn't debunk the quote.
Woops. There you go again, another "prove a negative". Ignorantum is bliss, yes, Britney?
In this case, a "letter to the editor" which suggested that the quote wasn't true because A. Sharon couldn't have been that stupid. B. One of the places the quote appeared was in a magazine sympathetic to Arabs. was proffered as "proof" that all 256 references to the quote on the Web were in error. It is hardly a huge leap here to suggest that this "proof", albeit of a negative, was less than airtight.
Cheers, RAH
Cheers, EMC -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
participants (5)
-
Declan McCullagh -
Eric Cordian -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
John Young -
R. A. Hettinga