Re: Why we still don't use digital cash
George writes:
Chaum's proposals always seemed a little weird to me, I'd be amazed if there wasn't a perfectly good way to implement dc without stepping on his patents.
Probably so, see the references in the recent critique of the Wired article.
If you look at the process of obtaining digital cash abstractly, I give you a bag of money, you give me a bag of tokens I can use to spend in shops, it seems to me that there are in principle two general sorts of ways that I can maintain my anonymity. ... 2) Just make it so you don't see my face when I get the bag of tokens.
This seems a lot more straightforward and natural to me.
Well, the problem is that to exchange cash for tokens, you need a way of sending cash to the bank. But if this exchange is to be done electronically, then that means you are sending e-cash. But your "tokens" *are* e-cash! So your description shows how to get anonymous e-cash, but only if you already start with anonymous e-cash. What you can do is to do an initial withdrawal of e-cash, non-anonymously, then do anonymous exchanges for fresh e-cash tokens. This is essentially the approach of Dan Simon of Microsoft, which is unfortunately patented, US05768385. It is described at http://www.research.microsoft.com/crypto/papers/ecash2.ps. Here is some analysis from June, 1998 cypherpunks post: : The basic idea is that to withdraw money, you select a random x and : send f(x) to the bank, where f() is a one way function. The bank debits : your account and sends you sign(f(x)), a signature on f(x). To deposit : the money you need to supply both x and sign(f(x)). By requiring you : to exhibit x, sign(f(x)) is no longer sensitive, so you don't have to : encrypt your communications with the bank. : : To pay someone else, you send them x and sign(f(x)). (This transaction : does have to be encrypted, because it includes x.) Now, if he just : deposits this to his bank account, the transaction would not be anonymous : since the bank would recognize sign(f(x)) as being associated with a : specific withdrawal. : : Instead, the recipient can do the standard anonymous-exchange trick, : long discussed in the context of Chaumian cash. He anonymously sends x, : sign(f(x)) to the bank along with a new "withdrawal request" created by : randomly choosing y and sending f(y) to the bank. The bank exchanges : the coin, sending sign(f(y)) back anonymously. Now this second party : can spend his coin y, sign(f(y)) with someone else, who does a similar : exchange. (The obscure "claim 27" quoted in the patent excerpt described : this process in the case where change is being made, and multiple coins : are received in exchange for one deposited.) : : Simon's protocol has several problems. First, the whole business : about sending around the secret values x and y is largely pointless. : Since you need secure communications for some steps, you might as well : assume you have them for all of them. In that case you could just send x : to the bank and get it signed (forcing x to be of some restricted form), : and then let sign(x) represent the coin. Everything works the same way. : : Second, it is not really anonymous. Note that no blinding is used. : Although the bank does not know who turned coin x into coin y, it does : know which coin was exchanged for which. Suppose it goes through, say, : three steps before being deposited. Coin x is withdrawn, anonymously : exchanged for y, which is anonymously exchanged for z, which is : later deposited. The bank knows who withdrew x and who deposited z. : It doesn't know who the intermediate parties were, which is the extent : of the anonymity. If the coins are circulating among a tightly knit : group this could completely compromise anonymity as the bank gathers : data on payment patterns. : : Furthermore, it is not clear how long these transfer chains will be : in practice. It may be in many cases that a coin is withdrawn and : then immediately deposited. That's how cash businesses work these : days. For that case, Simon suggested (at Crypto) that the recipient : could perform some "dummy exchanges", so it would look to the bank : like it had gone through some third parties. But if the bank suspects : this is going on, it is ineffective. The bank sees a withdrawal by : Alice and a deposit by Bob, after some intermediate transfers, and : it may speculate that Alice paid Bob directly. Again, sufficient : statistical data can be built up over time to correlate transfers and : reveal these patterns. : : This whole effort is an attempt to get anonymous payments without : violating Chaum's patents. But the anonymity is extremely weak, and : the use of one way functions makes the protocol look more sophisticated : than it is. Ultimately, this is just a matter of banks issuing signed : tokens to represent coins, with people being able to exchange them for : new ones anonymously. As such, the idea has been discussed since the : early days of cypherpunks and would not be patentable. Simon had to dress : it up with the one way functions to get something that looks different, : but ultimately it is nothing new or interesting.
On 15 Jun 2001, at 0:00, lcs Mixmaster Remailer wrote:
George writes:
If you look at the process of obtaining digital cash abstractly, I give you a bag of money, you give me a bag of tokens I can use to spend in shops, it seems to me that there are in principle two general sorts of ways that I can maintain my anonymity. ... 2) Just make it so you don't see my face when I get the bag of tokens.
This seems a lot more straightforward and natural to me.
Well, the problem is that to exchange cash for tokens, you need a way of sending cash to the bank. But if this exchange is to be done electronically, then that means you are sending e-cash. But your "tokens" *are* e-cash! So your description shows how to get anonymous e-cash, but only if you already start with anonymous e-cash.
What I'm sending ISN'T necessarily e-cash. In principle it could be anything someone has agreed to "buy". Also, at least one method of getting e-cash would be to literally hand over a bag of money to someone in the physical world. George
participants (2)
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georgemw@speakeasy.net
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lcs Mixmaster Remailer