where do we go from here (and where should we have gone)
The time for a massive one-shot 'retaliation' has passed --it should have been done within the hour. I had hoped when Bush went to Orfit AFB (US missile command, sometimes referred to as 'nuke city') we might see a proper response --we did not. As members of the Church we are required to forgive our "trespassers"; I have no problem with forgiving them as they are obviously misguided, but that does not change the need and responsibility to protect our families and therefore punish not only the direct participants but also their leaders and any nations who harbor them. In so much as the terrorists are outside the reasonable laws of man, extraordinary measures are warranted. I consider 'war, in and of itself, a war crime', but that does not diminish the occasional requirement to maintain the rule of law, but war should only be entertained if you are determined to strike a decisive (and hopefully permanent) victory. To the victors go the privilege to write history; to the losers go the war crime trials. Terrorists are a special case. Bin Laden is following the playbook of the old Chinese master, Sun Tzu: kill one man and you terrify 10,000. Terrorists can only be eliminated by turning the people against them with pain and suffering --eg: 18 million Iraqis all do not wish to be martyrs when the chips are down. If we had taken out Iraq and Afghanistan, we should have smiled and said: "Next?" Geostrategy Direct detailed the Israeli assessment of Bin Laden's and Hussein's dirty hands. Today's Federalist article was the strongest (and most rational) I have seen --their bottom line is part of what I demanded yesterday: Afghanistan becomes molten silicon. What do we do now? Probably slide down the slope of the talking heads as the Left criticizes Bush's lack of decisive leadership (and U.S. intelligence failure) and permits the UN to convene to condemn the terrorism, but even more strongly condemn U.S. foreign policy for creating the world problems which brought forth the terrorist response --in other words, the U.S. must pay off the radical Islamists. Jefferson made the correct statement in history vis a vis the Barbary pirates: '...not one penny in tribute' --even the Brits had been paying tribute. A task force, led by the USS Constitution (Old Ironsides) and the Marine Corps, leveled Tripoli. They did not ask for their surrender: they eliminated them. Summary justice. George blew his window of opportunity --he had a chance to go down in history as a decisive leader in crisis, rather than just a president who presided over the worst single casualty ever suffered by America, here or abroad; the diminution of our military status; the abrogation of our leadership in the free world; and the potential destruction of our economic base if the financial markets collapse when the stock markets reopen on Monday. But even more pernicious, few Americans will trust the government to protect them or represent them in the world. Sorry, George, I thought you were more of a man.
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, attila! wrote:
The time for a massive one-shot 'retaliation' has passed --it should have been done within the hour.
Change "the hour" to "an hour or two", and I would agree with this. However, we have an incredible bloatocracy, and about the only thing that can be coordinated within an hour or two nowadays is a blowjob from the intern...
And here is where you completely part with reality, and start regurgitating the carefully crafted bullshit you have been fed by this bloatocracy. The fact is, we have already killed many more than the 18 million you cite, and *that* is one of the many reasons we are so loathed, both externally, and internally.
Yup, sure *sounds* rational alright like a guy on Ketamine.
No. not "Pay off", just leave the fuck alone. We had this one coming. In fact, we had this coming _in spades_, and for a _very_ long time. What goeas around comes around, ya? We kill _millions_ of innocent civilians unjustifiably, and then have the GALL to complain when our own tactics are used against us???
But even more pernicious, few Americans will trust the government to protect them or represent them in the world.
You mean there were such fools *before* this happened???
Sorry, George, I thought you were more of a man.
Bzzzt. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you serious? Are you an American? Your views on the nations foreign policy make no sense for those logical Americans who know the good in what this nation does and stands for.
'Complain'? "We kill millions of innocent civilians unjustifiably"? Give me a break, Americans are not the DEVIL, this sounds like something the only the devil himself would do. To kill millions of innocent civilians; this is not the American Foreign Policy, never was and never will be. The real American Foreign Policy, not the garbage propaganda you've obviously been reading: Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were
lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of
Your words have sickened me. Even if atrocities like you say did take place, I'm sure they were done for a good reason; your still here aren't you? Living on the freest soil on earth. I think a thank you is in order, not a diatribe loathing the very government and people that gave you that ugly soap box your standing on. Ben Weber Senior Recruitment Consultant Information Security Practice Greythorn Inc 425 635 0300 ben.weber@greythorninc.com www.greythorn.com -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --- This e-mail may contain privileged and/or confidential information and is for the intended recipients only. In the event that you receive this e-mail in error you should delete it from all locations on your computer/network and contact Greythorn immediately on + 1 425 635 0300. As e-mail is an electronic form of communication the data may have been subject to corruption or unauthorized use and as such any views or opinions contained in this e-mail are not necessarily the views of Greythorn Inc and the company cannot be held responsible for any misuse. -----Original Message----- From: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com [mailto:owner-cypherpunks@toad.com]On Behalf Of measl@mfn.org Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:46 AM To: attila! Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: where do we go from here (and where should we have gone) On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, attila! wrote:
The time for a massive one-shot 'retaliation' has passed --it should have been done within the hour.
Change "the hour" to "an hour or two", and I would agree with this. However, we have an incredible bloatocracy, and about the only thing that can be coordinated within an hour or two nowadays is a blowjob from the intern...
And here is where you completely part with reality, and start regurgitating the carefully crafted bullshit you have been fed by this bloatocracy. The fact is, we have already killed many more than the 18 million you cite, and *that* is one of the many reasons we are so loathed, both externally, and internally.
Yup, sure *sounds* rational alright like a guy on Ketamine.
No. not "Pay off", just leave the fuck alone. We had this one coming. In fact, we had this coming _in spades_, and for a _very_ long time. What goeas around comes around, ya? We kill _millions_ of innocent civilians unjustifiably, and then have the GALL to complain when our own tactics are used against us???
But even more pernicious, few Americans will trust the government to protect them or represent them in the world.
You mean there were such fools *before* this happened???
Sorry, George, I thought you were more of a man.
Bzzzt. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:03:58AM -0700, Ben Weber wrote:
[WWII history stuff]
This has little to do with US middle east policies. I understand people are emotional at this point, but to be living under the impression that the US has no part in the escalation is ignorant of history. The fundamentalists behind these terrorist attacks are justifying their actions on the basis of US sponsorship of Israel which in their view is terrorising Palestinians, and various US interentionist military acts -- missile attacks, assassination attempts, blanket bombings etc. They may or may not have other agendas, but these historic grievances are what allow them to gain supporters. It seems likely that we will see an escalation: - Israel and Palestine conflict, Israel funded by US, both sides have greivances in their escalation of violence - previous WTC bombing, and US reactions to that if both sides continue to react with increasing violence where does it end? I'm not saying there is an easy answer, but escalation seems unlikely to help long term political stability. Unfocused escalation "no distinction between perpetrators and harborers" it would seem will be likely to create more victims, who have had family members killed who were bystanders and previously neutral or antagonistic to the perpetrators who will then be fodder for future supporters of that currently small minority of fundamentalist islam calling for jihad on the US. Pre-emptive strikes if any should be focused on military targets only not for the purpose of revenge but for the purpose of reducing the chance of further attacks. If a strike would in fact increase chance of further attacks and contribute to further escalation, I think it would be a bad idea, and instead attempts should be made to suppress the current cycle of escalations. Adam
participants (4)
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Adam Back -
attila! -
Ben Weber -
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