Re: Affects of the balkanization of mail blacklisting
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Jared Mauch wrote:
No, I'm not talking about the spammers who were caught in maps, I'm referring to the INNOCENTS who were caught in MAPS. If the LEO community acted like MAPS does, there would have been armed revolution in the streets *years ago*.
MAPS never gave a shit about facts, they cared only about their agenda - no matter who got hurt in the way.
Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just blew what little brains he has left out of his left ear.
I think you are confused and talking about ORBS. the MAPS people have not acted with any agenda that I've ever seen.
I assure you I am not confused. ORBS was intolerably worse, but MAPS is still not something I am looking forward to seeing survive.
I'm not saying that I agree with all the things that MAPS or Vixie has done during their lifetimes but I think they provide a valuable service.
Then of course, you are free to subscribe.
With the orbs, maps changes recently i've seen the volume of spam increase by several orders of magnitude.
Agreed.
I wish there was a clean way to filter it out.
There are plenty, but most of us are too goddamn lazy to do it ourselves, and ask for an ORBS or MAPS like service to do it for us. We have NEVER had a spam problem (we've been here since 1994) going out - not a single incident (not that we probably won't haqve one *someday*, but still, it's a hell of a good track record). The SPAM problem goes up and down to be sure, but you know what? PROCMAIL is your friend. All you need to look for are the basics (ADV, Make Money, etc) and you can instatly filter 90 percent of this trash into the bitbucket. At work (not mfn.org), I get several orders of magnitude more mail (usually obnoxious at that) from the "gentle anti-spammers" than the poor "victims" get themselves! Lets get my position straight: I think spam is annoying as heel, and should not be done. I don't think that SPAM is going to cause any major social upheavals. I also disagree that all people want to be spared from SPAM, and with thaqt in mind, I believe everyone should defend themselves to the best of their interest, and leave the next guy alone: he or she probably has *way* more important things to worry about.
- Jared -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 11:33:36PM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Jared Mauch wrote:
No, I'm not talking about the spammers who were caught in maps, I'm referring to the INNOCENTS who were caught in MAPS. If the LEO community acted like MAPS does, there would have been armed revolution in the streets *years ago*.
MAPS never gave a shit about facts, they cared only about their agenda - no matter who got hurt in the way.
Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just blew what little brains he has left out of his left ear.
I think you are confused and talking about ORBS. the MAPS people have not acted with any agenda that I've ever seen.
I assure you I am not confused. ORBS was intolerably worse, but MAPS is still not something I am looking forward to seeing survive.
The best way to do that is to produce a solution that's better than MAPS. If you strongly beleive in end-user filtering, then make a better end-user filter. In fact you can start with mine (see web page) and make it user-friendly enough that your Mom can use it. Then it might see significant use. MAPS might not have been perfect, and ORBS was overly agressive, but they were actually doing something. It was simple, just add a couple lines to your sendmail.cf and much of your spam would go away. Great for ISPs with users complaining about spam. (that's a hint about how your better-than-MAPS system might work). [stuff deleted] It's easier to write a rant than it is to write code, but code is what counts. Eric
On Tue, 14 Aug 2001, Eric Murray wrote:
It's easier to write a rant than it is to write code, but code is what counts.
Actually unless somebody (even the programmer) is ranting there is no motivation for writing code. Code solves a problem, a problem requires somebody to bitch about it. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
alright, this is the last thing I'm going to say on this particular point... (heh, how many times have we heard *that* from me...) On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 measl@mfn.org wrote:
There are plenty, but most of us are too goddamn lazy to do it ourselves, and ask for an ORBS or MAPS like service to do it for us. We have NEVER had a spam problem (we've been here since 1994) going out - not a single incident (not that we probably won't haqve one *someday*, but still, it's a hell of a good track record).
OK, fine. For the purposes of this argument I'll take that statement at face value, although I'd be curious where you work. If you're an IT type at a big corporation whose primary line of business isn't Internet access, then your statement means nothing as outgoing spam is much easier to control when you're not an ISP/IAP/NSP/*SP.
The SPAM problem goes up and down to be sure, but you know what? PROCMAIL is your friend. All you need to look for are the basics (ADV, Make Money, etc) and you can instatly filter 90 percent of this trash into the bitbucket.
This sounds like "Just Hit Delete". Most of us who dislike spam would prefer to remove the problems, not just the symptoms.
At work (not mfn.org), I get several orders of magnitude more mail (usually obnoxious at that) from the "gentle anti-spammers" than the poor "victims" get themselves!
And why is it that you're getting all this mail? Most anti-spammers I know of just don't go looking for targets to shoot at, they complain to the sources of spam that they have *actually received.*
should not be done. I don't think that SPAM is going to cause any major social upheavals. I also disagree that all people want to be spared from SPAM, and with thaqt in mind, I believe everyone should defend themselves to the best of their interest, and leave the next guy alone: he or she probably has *way* more important things to worry about.
I think you have an agenda. I think further that you are not being completely honest with us about why you have a bone to pick with MAPS. The people who read this mailing list aren't naive. You won't find John Q. AOL-Member reading your posts. I have plenty of experience working on the net, and I actually consider myself one of the least experienced people who regularly posts here... I look at reading many of the NANOG threads as a learning experience, and contribute what little I have to contribute. Anyhow, you'll find that most of the people here are pretty good at critical thinking, which is a necessity in the line of business in which we work. And I am sure that others will be happy to pick apart your arguments. For my own edification... all I am asking is that you come clean and tell us the ENTIRE story. -- JustThe.net LLC - Steve "Web Dude" Sobol, CTO - sjsobol@JustThe.net Donate a portion of your monthly ISP bill to your favorite charity or non-profit organization! E-mail me for details.
participants (4)
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Eric Murray -
Jim Choate -
measl＠mfn.org -
Steven J. Sobol