RE: e voting (receipts, votebuying, brinworld)
At 01:04 PM 11/24/03 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
Thats not how it works. The idea is that you make your choices on the machine, and when you lock them in, two things happen: They are electronically recorded in the device for the normal count, and also, a paper receipt is printed. The voter checks the receipt to see if it accurately records his choices, and then is required to put it in a ballot box retained at the polling site.
If there's a need for a recount, the paper receipts can be checked.
I imagine a well designed system might show the paper receipt through a window, but not let it be handled, to prevent serial fraud.
Vinny the Votebuyer pays you if you send a picture of your face adjacent to the committed receipt, even if you can't touch it. Since the voting booth is private, no one can see you do this, even if it were made illegal. (And since phones can store images, jamming the transmission at the booth doesn't work.) You send your picture from the cellphone that took it, along with a paypal account number as a text message. Vinny knows the vote is committed at that point. Vinnie can bin diff compare pix to assure non-duplicates, hires someone (probably offshore :-) to verify its not a quick and dirty photoshop job, and that its a vote for the "right" candidate. Further resisting photoshop, Vinny accepts pictures only during voting hours. Vinny has some kind of front business which could be expected to pay lots of people in bursts --a political polling service that reimburses interviewees would be ideal. On a small scale (coerce your voting age household members) its untraceable. On a medium scale (free drinks if you can show you voted for Caesar) its easy too. On a larger scale you might need confidentiality for the image and traffic analysis resistance. Maybe anon cash. Fundamentally, its just like the analog hole for DRM ---you can't show a human a commit message without the human being able to reproduce it for others. The booths could cycle through fake commit messages for all possible candidates, so that you could take a picture of yourself with a bogus commit message, vote as you will, and still collect. That might be confusing but is a counter. NB: Collect = avoid retribution.
At 2:30 PM -0800 11/24/03, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
At 01:04 PM 11/24/03 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
Thats not how it works. The idea is that you make your choices on the machine, and when you lock them in, two things happen: They are electronically recorded in the device for the normal count, and also, a paper receipt is printed. The voter checks the receipt to see if it accurately records his choices, and then is required to put it in a ballot box retained at the polling site.
If there's a need for a recount, the paper receipts can be checked.
I imagine a well designed system might show the paper receipt through a window, but not let it be handled, to prevent serial fraud.
Vinny the Votebuyer pays you if you send a picture of your face adjacent to the committed receipt, even if you can't touch it. [more deleted]
It depends on what happens to the receipt when you say commit. It could automatically go into the ballot box without delay, so you can't take such a photo. I expect that Vinny is already doing this with video of the touch screen verification screen and the voter pressing OK, but he hasn't make me an offer yet. I expect he gets better value for his money with TV ads, and last minute hit mailers. Cheers - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | "There's nothing so clear as a | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | vague idea you haven't written | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | down yet." -- Dean Tribble | Los Gatos, CA 95032
On Nov 24, 2003, at 3:52 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
At 2:30 PM -0800 11/24/03, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
At 01:04 PM 11/24/03 -0500, Trei, Peter wrote:
Thats not how it works. The idea is that you make your choices on the machine, and when you lock them in, two things happen: They are electronically recorded in the device for the normal count, and also, a paper receipt is printed. The voter checks the receipt to see if it accurately records his choices, and then is required to put it in a ballot box retained at the polling site.
If there's a need for a recount, the paper receipts can be checked.
I imagine a well designed system might show the paper receipt through a window, but not let it be handled, to prevent serial fraud.
Vinny the Votebuyer pays you if you send a picture of your face adjacent to the committed receipt, even if you can't touch it. [more deleted]
It depends on what happens to the receipt when you say commit. It could automatically go into the ballot box without delay, so you can't take such a photo.
If it goes in without any delay, without any chance for Suzie the Sheeple to examine it, then why bother at all? Simply issue an "assurance" to Suzie that her ballot was duly copied to an adjacent memory store or counting box. When she says "Then why did you people even bother?," just shrug and say "They told us to do it." As Major Variola said a few messages ago, as soon as human eyes can see it, machines and cameras and cellphones and eavesdroppers and Vinnie the Votebuyer can see it. I expect there may be some good solutions to this issue, but I haven't yet seen them discussed here or on other fora I run across. And since encouraging the democrats has never been a priority for me, I haven't spent much time worrying about how to improve democratic elections. And since a person should be completely free to sell his or her vote, 99% of the measures to stop vote-buying are bogus on general principles. --Tim May --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
At 8:04 PM -0800 11/24/03, Tim May wrote:
I expect there may be some good solutions to this issue, but I haven't yet seen them discussed here or on other fora I run across. And since encouraging the democrats has never been a priority for me, I haven't spent much time worrying about how to improve democratic elections.
You might check out David Chaum's latest solution at http://www.vreceipt.com/, there are more details in the whitepaper: http://www.vreceipt.com/article.pdf Cheers - Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | "There's nothing so clear as a | Periwinkle (408)356-8506 | vague idea you haven't written | 16345 Englewood Ave www.pwpconsult.com | down yet." -- Dean Tribble | Los Gatos, CA 95032
You might check out David Chaum's latest solution at http://www.vreceipt.com/, there are more details in the whitepaper: http://www.vreceipt.com/article.pdf
That is irrelevant. Whatever the solution is it must be understandable and verifiable by the Standard high school dropout. Also, the trace must be mechanical in nature and readable sans computers, as there is no reason to trust anything that goes through gates for which one hasn't verifed masks, when stakes are high. ===== end (of original message) Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/
Um, last I checked, phone cameras have really shitty resolution, usually less than 320x200. Even so, you'd need MUCH higher resolution, say 3-5Mpixels to be able to read text on a printout in a picture. Add focus and aiming issues, and this just won't work unless you carry a good camera into the booth with you. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :25Kliters anthrax, 38K liters botulinum toxin, 500 tons of /|\ \|/ :sarin, mustard and VX gas, mobile bio-weapons labs, nukular /\|/\ <--*-->:weapons.. Reasons for war on Iraq - GWB 2003-01-28 speech. \/|\/ /|\ :Found to date: 0. Cost of war: $800,000,000,000 USD. \|/ + v + : The look on Sadam's face - priceless! --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
Vinny the Votebuyer pays you if you send a picture of your face adjacent to the committed receipt, even if you can't touch it. Since the voting booth is private, no one can see you do this, even if it were made illegal. (And since phones can store images, jamming the transmission at the booth doesn't work.)
You send your picture from the cellphone that took it, along with a paypal account number as a text message.
participants (5)
-
Bill Frantz -
Major Variola (ret) -
Morlock Elloi -
Sunder -
Tim May