RE: Making the Agora Vanish

At 02:33 AM 4/16/2001 +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
It is true that there is a vast amount of almost-demand on the parts of risk-averse people who don't want to act for fear of being wrong - but there are a lot of people who have figured out how to get things done without depending on "the stick" that is the law, and are doing so already. It is the latter group of people whose needs must be met for a transjurisdictional commerce system to be successful - the former group can come along when they're ready, or not at all.
However, if the former group is large enough, as one suspects, it may well repress any attempt to accommodate the needs of the latter. For instance, legislative attacks on any widespread anonymity infrastructure are pretty much a given when people, most of whom have precisely the kind of idealistic conception of the legal system you describe, realize that law can't touch an anonymous economy.
Yes, the laws can be written, and they will enjoy the same efficiency and success that laws against copyright violation, pornography, prostitution, illicit drugs, and so forth have experienced. Not only can the law not touch an anonymous economy, it cannot prevent one, either. It's difficult for people in comfortable democratic countries to fully comprehend that activities like drug trafficking, pornography distribution, and adultery continue in places where punishment for those activities is likely to be summary public execution. Further tinkering with the Sentencing Guidelines, for example, might change the rate at which those things occur, but it will not eliminate them. At a macro policy level, we cannot choose a regulatory configuration where those activities never occur - humans have already experimented with incredibly scary sticks (like death and torture and extended unpleasant imprisonment) and found them inadequate to eliminate them. We will have to plan (to the extent that macro planning is considered important) on those activities continuing; and we should not abandon otherwise productive choices because they fail to achieve the impossible. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles@well.com "Organized crime is the price we pay for organization." -- Raymond Chandler

In the spirit of throwaway hotmail accounts, online "Emoney" accounts now are available for a minimum deposit of just US$200 dollars, euros, or Swiss francs. These are fiat currencies, not something like e-gold, and the identity requirements seem no more stringent than recieving your mail at Mail Boxes Etc. http://www.ecompany.com/articles/mag/0,1640,9639,00.html http://www.swissnetbank.com/ Although there have been some recent concerns over Swiss baking privacy recently ( http://www.tax-news.com/html/oldnews/st_jswfright_06_09_00.html http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=111&sid=594072 http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3AB3M0NJC&liv ), using an assumed identity (like one might for a HushMail account) could provide some degree of anonymity. Cheers, Woody ===== Woodrum E. Patterson, Sov. wp@nukewoody.com http://nukewoody.com "Do not open your mouth to tell me that your mind has convinced you of your right to forcemy mind. Force and mind are opposites. Morality ends where a gun begins." � Ayn Rand __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Greg Broiles wrote:
For instance, legislative attacks on any widespread anonymity infrastructure are pretty much a given when people, most of whom have precisely the kind of idealistic conception of the legal system you describe, realize that law can't touch an anonymous economy.
Yes, the laws can be written, and they will enjoy the same efficiency and success that laws against copyright violation, pornography, prostitution, illicit drugs, and so forth have experienced. Not only can the law not touch an anonymous economy, it cannot prevent one, either.
Agreed, to a degree. But it isn't very difficult to outlaw crypto, and to effectively control its use for online anonymity - to get a workable anonymity infrastructure, you need common protocols, participants to create the mixnets and a certain amount of publicity to make your effort matter. It is extremely difficult to run such a usable setup without being detected by a determined TLA. Unlike with IP, porn, prostitution and drug trade, control of online activities can largely be automated. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy@iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
participants (3)
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Greg Broiles
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Sampo Syreeni
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Woody Patterson