"A very large number of muslims, particularly arab muslims- a small minority in the US, a large minority or substantial majority in many muslim countries, continually seek to confront the infidel in a wide variety of ways, and interpret our politeness and care to avoid harming muslims as weakness and fear." I would bet that statements that sound very, very close to this were uttered prior to Iraq II. "Care to Avoid harming Muslims"? You are either trolling with better skill than even I, the Great Tyler Durden could muster, or else you are completely and totally ignorant of world history. Go read some history books and you will understand the reason we (the US) has been targeted in particular. You'll quickly find that their hatred of us in not accidental. As for your "looks like a mad bomber" ideas, are you suggesting that, the day after a militant Indonesian muslim commits an act of terrorism, we should then exclude all asians from our airplanes, buses and subways? I don't think you've thought this out very well. -TD
From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> To: "cypherpunks@al-qaeda.net" <cypherpunks@al-qaeda.net> Subject: Re: Airport insanity Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 10:27:38 -0700
-- James A. Donald:
> If you really look like the shoe bomber, then you > should have to drive.
Thomas Shaddack
Ever tried to drive to Europe? Or to Hawaii?
James A. Donald:
Hard biscuit
Thomas Shaddack
Do I interpret this statement correctly as the endorsement of ethnicity-based travel restrictions?
No. You can take a boat, if they will have you, drive to Mexico to fly with people less likely to be the target of mad bombers who look like you, hire a private plane, or take a long swim.
Why airplanes don't count as a form of public transport?
They do.
I am afraid either I don't understand you correctly, or you are contradicting yourself.
I was unclear. To clarify: So far the terrorists have not struck at buses outside Israel. When they do start striking at buses, then people who look like mad bombers should not be allowed on buses. Until then, they should be allowed on buses.
The proposition that we need to walk delicately for fear of disturbing the tender sensibilities of arabs seems laughable.
Being told I can't use some quite common resource, in this case an important means of transportation, because of so irrelevant factor as ethnicity, isn't exactly delicate.
A very large number of muslims, particularly arab muslims- a small minority in the US, a large minority or substantial majority in many muslim countries, continually seek to confront the infidel in a wide variety of ways, and interpret our politeness and care to avoid harming muslims as weakness and fear.
--digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Kn476w4tT/gvivWH76W69/lBhHE5o0IKQ1oYJggS 4AiBUDha46+ldVnTeFiyvMwJoG9A/oE/Ac0FEd/uH
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-- James A. Donald:
A very large number of muslims, particularly arab muslims- a small minority in the US, a large minority or substantial majority in many muslim countries, continually seek to confront the infidel in a wide variety of ways, and interpret our politeness and care to avoid harming muslims as weakness and fear."
Tyler Durden
I would bet that statements that sound very, very close to this were uttered prior to Iraq II.
"Care to Avoid harming Muslims"?
You are either trolling or [...]
Sadre protected himself with Iraqi women and young children as human shields, showing that he expected the Pentagon to show more concern for Iraqi lives than he did. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG z0Tj1tmeI/AaMuuBMu2Z8xH7q6Mx5bQYJFqN5xU1 4zftsnadKxHqaGDRsPhgFcT8bZCLY79W7Yk0HjGwc
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, James A. Donald wrote:
Sadre protected himself with Iraqi women and young children as human shields, showing that he expected the Pentagon to show more concern for Iraqi lives than he did.
Pentagon protects their people by distance - being it by bombing from high altitude, or by using cruise missiles. Everybody uses the technology available to them. What's bad on it? Invariably, the side that uses the defensive measure - being it smart weapons[1] or human shields - classifies it as tactical, while the other side considers it cowardly. A nice example of symmetry in asymmetry. [1] The defensive aspect here is to allow the attackers to attack from distance beyond the reach of the other side's active defenses, thus not risking anything more than a piece of overpriced electronics.
On Mon, 2004-10-18 at 15:17, Thomas Shaddack wrote:
Pentagon protects their people by distance - being it by bombing from high altitude, or by using cruise missiles.
Everybody uses the technology available to them. What's bad on it?
Invariably, the side that uses the defensive measure - being it smart weapons[1] or human shields - classifies it as tactical, while the other side considers it cowardly.
A nice example of symmetry in asymmetry.
[1] The defensive aspect here is to allow the attackers to attack from distance beyond the reach of the other side's active defenses, thus not risking anything more than a piece of overpriced electronics.
If some asshole is coming at you with a knife, it's cowardly to shoot him before he's in range? Dumbass.
Steve Furlong <sfurlong@acmenet.net> writes:
[1] The defensive aspect here is to allow the attackers to attack from distance beyond the reach of the other side's active defenses, thus not risking anything more than a piece of overpriced electronics.
If some asshole is coming at you with a knife, it's cowardly to shoot him before he's in range? Dumbass.
Except that ol' Sodom didn't come for you...
-- James A. Donald:
Sadre protected himself with Iraqi women and young children as human shields, showing that he expected the Pentagon to show more concern for Iraqi lives than he did.
Thomas Shaddack
Pentagon protects their people by distance - being it by bombing from high altitude, or by using cruise missiles.
Everybody uses the technology available to them. What's bad on it?
Invariably, the side that uses the defensive measure - being it smart weapons[1] or human shields - classifies it as tactical, while the other side considers it cowardly.
But no one would ever use human shields as a protection against Sadr. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG baNQWrpILKDhhFIBGXuMuSPmLUwgDjnVj7KGTDrs 4cKV4IqQITCwrJCTQCt5kQpfh5eiP+IX2EqGFdRA8
-- Tyler Durden
"Care to Avoid harming Muslims"?
You are either trolling or [...]
http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041018-124854-2279r.htm : : Despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to : : renounce violence, at least seven former prisoners : : of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have : : returned to terrorism, at times with deadly : : consequences. : : : : At least two are believed to have died in fighting : : in Afghanistan, and a third was recaptured during a : : raid of a suspected training camp in Afghanistan, : : Lt. Cmdr. Flex Plexico, a Pentagon spokesman, said : : last week. Others are at large. : : Additional former detainees have expressed a desire : : to rejoin the fight, be it against U.N. peacekeepers : : in Afghanistan, Americans in Iraq or Russian : : soldiers in Chechnya. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG gZPWnxSpOCzn/7t/pyram/Z9ixbExE1haS5OzFBm 4i6xvRLGqBtHJfp8bm6GLFqF6pwABThwj/PjOpaVx
James Donald recently wrote
Thomas Shaddack wrote:
It isn't a problem for you until it happens to you. Who knows when being interested in anon e-cash will become a ground to blacklist *you*.
I know when it will happen. It will happen when people interested in anon ecash go on suicide missions. :-)
More likely, when anon ecash money-launderers start being accused of funding terrorist activities. At 11:38 AM 10/18/2004, Thomas Shaddack wrote:
Never underestimate the power of the combination of the People With Agendas with Classified Computerized Profiling Algorithms. :)
Unfortunately, the primary algorithm seems to work like this: - Somebody puts a name on some list because it seems like a good idea at the time, and there's no due process required. - Everybody copies lists from everybody else, with minimal attempt to track where the information comes from. - Database corruption propagates rapidly, so anybody who's on any list because of political corruption like Neo-Cointelpro stays there because of database corruption.
-- Thomas Shaddack:
It isn't a problem for you until it happens to you. Who knows when being interested in anon e-cash will become a ground to blacklist *you*.
James A. Donald:
I know when it will happen. It will happen when people interested in anon ecash go on suicide missions. :-)
Bill Stewart
More likely, when anon ecash money-launderers start being accused of funding terrorist activities.
When e-currency handlers (cambists) are accused of money laundering terrorist's money, the feds steal the money, but they do not obstruct them from travelling, or, surprisingly, even from doing business - well, perhaps not so surprisingly, for if they stopped them from doing business there would be nothing to steal. When the state uses repressive measures against those that seek to murder us, there is still a large gap between that and using repressive measures against everyone. We are not terrorists, we don't look like terrorists, we don't sound like terrorists. Indeed, the more visible real terrorists are, the less even Tim McViegh looks like a terrorist and the more he looks like a patriot. When people are under attack they are going to lash out, to kill and destroy. Lashing out an external enemy, real or imaginary, is a healthy substitute for lashing out at internal enemies. We do not have a choice of peace, merely a choice between war against external or internal enemies. Clearly, war against external enemies is less dangerous to freedom. War is dangerous to freedom, but we do not have a choice of peace. The question is where the war is to be fought - in America, or elsewhere. War within America will surely destroy freedom. What we need to fear is those that talk about the home front and internal security, those who claim that Christians are as big a threat as Muslims - or that black Muslims are as big a threat as Middle Eastern Muslims. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG cGrCJvmIhJnYLWO2RB3qmnqijcHlOOsA7iklRoZD 4Ar75eLN10XbfJw/mqPpGQeUW0SzMlz4CLrpHIeEe
You know, the more I read posts by Mr. Donald, the more I believe that he is quite possibly the most apt troll I have ever encountered. It is quite apparent from reading his responses that he is obviously an exceptionally intelligent (academically anyway) individual. I find it hard to believe that such intelligence could reside in a person with such critically flawed core beliefs. I have a hunch that Mr. Donald is instead playing the role of an elaborate "devil's advocate", furiously defending his stance against retaliations by our fellow Cypherpunks. Tyler Durden mentioned this hypothesis many emails ago, and I believe him to be accurate, especially since Mr. Donald never responded to the charge. None-the-less, this has been one of the more inteteresting (and infuriating) threads in recent memory of Cypherpunks. I'm glad we're going through it with such vigor. -Adam On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:39:05 -0700, "James A. Donald" <jamesd@echeque.com> said:
-- Thomas Shaddack:
It isn't a problem for you until it happens to you. Who knows when being interested in anon e-cash will become a ground to blacklist *you*.
James A. Donald:
I know when it will happen. It will happen when people interested in anon ecash go on suicide missions. :-)
Bill Stewart
More likely, when anon ecash money-launderers start being accused of funding terrorist activities.
When e-currency handlers (cambists) are accused of money laundering terrorist's money, the feds steal the money, but they do not obstruct them from travelling, or, surprisingly, even from doing business - well, perhaps not so surprisingly, for if they stopped them from doing business there would be nothing to steal.
When the state uses repressive measures against those that seek to murder us, there is still a large gap between that and using repressive measures against everyone.
We are not terrorists, we don't look like terrorists, we don't sound like terrorists. Indeed, the more visible real terrorists are, the less even Tim McViegh looks like a terrorist and the more he looks like a patriot.
When people are under attack they are going to lash out, to kill and destroy. Lashing out an external enemy, real or imaginary, is a healthy substitute for lashing out at internal enemies. We do not have a choice of peace, merely a choice between war against external or internal enemies. Clearly, war against external enemies is less dangerous to freedom.
War is dangerous to freedom, but we do not have a choice of peace. The question is where the war is to be fought - in America, or elsewhere. War within America will surely destroy freedom.
What we need to fear is those that talk about the home front and internal security, those who claim that Christians are as big a threat as Muslims - or that black Muslims are as big a threat as Middle Eastern Muslims.
--digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG cGrCJvmIhJnYLWO2RB3qmnqijcHlOOsA7iklRoZD 4Ar75eLN10XbfJw/mqPpGQeUW0SzMlz4CLrpHIeEe
At 11:37 PM -0400 10/23/04, Adam wrote:
You know, the more I read posts by Mr. Donald, the more I believe that he is quite possibly the most apt troll I have ever encountered.
No, that was Tim May. The world champion troll if there ever was one -- among other things. :-). James is right, of course. He may be a dick, but you guys are starting to sound an awful lot like assholes. Or maybe just pussies who are full of shit. :-). See below for details, and click the link, if you want more gems. Better yet, go see the movie. I'm still laughing. BTW, the correct response to my argument, above, the one Tim would take, anyway, is that Team America is puerile, and so, he might add in passing, am I for citing it. Don't forget to do Tim May mocking Team America with a perfectly puerile imitation, or something, while you're at it. Don't forget to correct their or my grammar, haircuts, etc., either, for that matter... Cheers, RAH ------- <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372588/quotes> Memorable Quotes from Team America: World Police (2004) Gary Johnston : We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Film Actors Guild are pussies. And Kim Jong Il is an asshole. Pussies dont like dicks because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes. Assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck a asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate. And it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves. Because pussies are a inch and half away from assholes. I don't know much about this crazy crazy world, but I do know this. If you don't let us fuck this asshole we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
On Sat, Oct 23, 2004 at 11:37:02PM -0400, Adam wrote:
None-the-less, this has been one of the more inteteresting (and infuriating) threads in recent memory of Cypherpunks. I'm glad we're going through it with such vigor.
That thread bores me to tears. I miss technical content. Or, at least, a few pointers of where the action is. I'm tinkering with Nehemiah's RNG (/dev/hw_random is next to useless without a patch), and about to start using PadLock patches, once C5P hardware arrives. I'm also going to look into OpenBSD, once 3.6 is up on mirrors. What is happening in TCP/IP level traffic remixing? P2P apps? Can someone in the know provide a boilerplate, or at least a list of raw URLs? -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Adam wrote:
You know, the more I read posts by Mr. Donald, the more I believe that he is quite possibly the most apt troll I have ever encountered. It is quite apparent from reading his responses that he is obviously an exceptionally intelligent (academically anyway) individual. I find it hard to believe that such intelligence could reside in a person with such critically flawed core beliefs. You forget SternFud so easily?
-- On 23 Oct 2004 at 23:37, Adam wrote:
You know, the more I read posts by Mr. Donald, the more I believe that he is quite possibly the most apt troll I have ever encountered.
Why don't you pick one particular factual claim, for example that Bin Laden was a CIA agent, and defend it, instead of confidently asserting all this wild baloney, and deffending past baloney with an endless stream of new baloney, pronounced with equal confidence? --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG xOlAusokL6372cJOfxYIKssrD7fRmaOORj2kjput 4y6M4TN/NDS5VmHOHQML2KCnZmUaNTCeosglcxYJE
participants (10)
-
Adam -
Bill Stewart -
Dave Howe -
Eugen Leitl -
James A. Donald -
ocorrain＠yahoo.com -
R.A. Hettinga -
Steve Furlong -
Thomas Shaddack -
Tyler Durden