On 11/27/06, R.A. Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> wrote:
At 11:13 PM -0500 11/26/06, Ulex "Europae" (s/b Ulex europaeus, a small highland shrub; maybe it's trying to speak in the royal 'we', but more likely Yet Another EuroLefty, apparently of the Scottish* variety) wrote:
You missed by a whole continent, that's the latest salvo in a barrage though. If the message is unassailable, attack the messenger. That comes through loud and clear. I thought you were better than that, RAH. I haven't trolled at all in these last couple of replies either, perhaps you wished I had so you could dismiss these uncomfortable truths more easily.
You aren't really advancing a might-makes-right argument are you?
Might makes *fact*.
No. Galileo advanced a fact and might swatted him for it, that the Earth was the center of the universe has never been a fact. There are other "facts" that simply aren't so despite consensus to the contrary.
"Right" is a fact made palatable by rationalization.
It sounds like you are engaging in your own rationalizations.
Again, for the groundlings, at least, since shrubbery doesn't have ears: When the market needs ubiquitous easy-to-use encryption it'll get it. When that's the case nothing the state can do will "repress" it.
You haven't been paying attention, have you? A refresher: the EFF is suing AT&T for getting into bed with the NSA and the widespread eavesdropping that has been engaged in. Widespread encryption has been needed for quite some time, it hasn't been particularly wanted because it isn't easy or accessible. Yet.
And, when somebody writes code worthy of being ubiquitous and easy-to-use, there's nothing the market will be able do to "repress" it, either.
Prove it. You could use a few extra million dollars, couldn't you?
And somebody will get rich writing it, because the market will pay for it.
So, take your shot, um, Mr. Shrub, and *write* the code you want. Until then, stop bleating around here about your "rights", and how other people should do your work for you for free.
Let's review. I asked why Mixmaster software was not available for the Win32 platform. The underlying question, why fully-encrypted communications were not more widespread - you've more than amply demonstrated why. --Ulex
At 10:04 AM -0500 11/27/06, Ulex Europae wrote:
No. Galileo advanced a fact and might swatted him for it, that the Earth was the center of the universe has never been a fact. There are other "facts" that simply aren't so despite consensus to the contrary.
Physics causes finance. Finance causes law. Law causes politics. Politics causes religion. Your point is?
A refresher: the EFF is suing AT&T for getting into bed with the NSA and the widespread eavesdropping that has been engaged in. Widespread encryption has been needed for quite some time, it hasn't been particularly wanted because it isn't easy or accessible. Yet.
And that, besides proving that EFF can't do much but sue, proves what, exactly? Again. You want mixmaster code. Write code. Quit whining.
Prove it. You could use a few extra million dollars, couldn't you?
Indeed. However, I'm not the one asking others to write code for free, am I?
I asked why Mixmaster software was not available for the Win32 platform. The underlying question, why fully-encrypted communications were not more widespread - you've more than amply demonstrated why.
And so did you. Thank you very much for playing. Insert quarter for new game. Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
Walk away, come back to the desk, come back with a better answer. At 10:04 AM -0500 11/27/06, Ulex Europae wrote:
And, when somebody writes code worthy of being ubiquitous and easy-to-use, there's nothing the market will be able do to "repress" it, either.
Prove it. You could use a few extra million dollars, couldn't you?
'tis a paradox, Mr. Fermi. Care to figure it out? Hint: Prices are discovered... :-) Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
In the long run that's probably true. But North Korea's internet penetration rates prove that the 'inevitable' can be delayed for decent amounts of time. Meanwhile, real-world consequnces accrue, some of which might be ameliorated with a nice VM-enabled gadget or two. Never hurts to scream like a litle baby, too...you never know who's gonna toss you a little sump'in-sump'in... -TD
From: "R.A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com> To: "Ulex Europae" <europus@gmail.com>, cypherpunks@jfet.org Subject: Re: Mixmaster? Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:46:48 -0500
Walk away, come back to the desk, come back with a better answer.
At 10:04 AM -0500 11/27/06, Ulex Europae wrote:
And, when somebody writes code worthy of being ubiquitous and easy-to-use, there's nothing the market will be able do to "repress" it, either.
Prove it. You could use a few extra million dollars, couldn't you?
'tis a paradox, Mr. Fermi. Care to figure it out?
Hint: Prices are discovered...
:-)
Cheers, RAH
-- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
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R.A. Hettinga wrote:
Walk away, come back to the desk, come back with a better answer.
At 10:04 AM -0500 11/27/06, Ulex Europae wrote:
And, when somebody writes code worthy of being ubiquitous and easy-to-use, there's nothing the market will be able do to "repress" it, either. Prove it. You could use a few extra million dollars, couldn't you?
'tis a paradox, Mr. Fermi. Care to figure it out?
Hint: Prices are discovered...
:-)
Cheers, RAH
Yes, and until the mixmaster nodes start to *charge* anonymous digital gold tokens for routing, and lets nodes gets into competition with each other to create a robotic free market, the Internet will be a baby eaten alive by Mighty Big Brother and mixmaster will be overrun by the tragedy of the commons... Big Fat Hint: The above (pay for traffic nodes) will result in spam free untraceable email, robotic economically viable self extending wireless networks, Voip thats really secure and high quality, DDoS proof Internet, private p2p markets for commodities, stocks etc... etc. Now, if there are investors out there... speak up. The alternative Internet provided "for free" is the biggest boon to big government, ever! (well, almost... after fiat money). "Capitalist" $$investors are about to be eaten alive by fiat money that is not theirs which they soon cannot move... The clampdown will be, heh, SWIFT (sic). I spoke about this at HOPE6, I don't know if more than a couple of people in the audience even got an inkling of what the hell I was talking about. If they did, and are busy producing code, more power to them. Best regards, ---Venkat.
At 7:46 AM -0500 11/29/06, rayservers wrote:
Yes, and until the mixmaster nodes start to *charge* anonymous digital gold tokens for routing, and lets nodes gets into competition with each other to create a robotic free market, the Internet will be a baby eaten alive by Mighty Big Brother and mixmaster will be overrun by the tragedy of the commons...
Ahhhh... it smells like springtime in here. Somebody must have opened the crypt door and let some air in. Amen. The 'tragedy' of the commons is that nobody *owns* the commons. So, *sell* the fucking commons. :-) Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
On 11/29/06, rayservers <rayservers@gmail.com> wrote:
... Yes, and until the mixmaster nodes start to *charge* anonymous digital gold tokens for routing, and lets nodes gets into competition with each other to create a robotic free market, the Internet will be a baby eaten alive by Mighty Big Brother and mixmaster will be overrun by the tragedy of the commons...
bootstrapping is hard, particularly when you must include a robust reputation metric. "anonymous digital gold tokens" is really too narrow, as what you seek is exactly a robust reputation / trust metric tied to the economy of peer interaction. digital cash is attractive because the reputation it embodies is fungible, but other forms of reputation are useful and may prove more effective in certain contexts, particularly when your adversary is well funded (think "creeping death attacks"). [0]
Big Fat Hint: The above (pay for traffic nodes) will result in spam free untraceable email, robotic economically viable self extending wireless networks, Voip thats really secure and high quality, DDoS proof Internet, private p2p markets for commodities, stocks etc... etc. Now, if there are investors out there... speak up.
oh, if it were so simple! payment alone is not sufficient, this [dark|anonymous|private]net requires robust reputation and usability too. payment is part of that equation, but other incentives to participate and contribute must be addressed. remember mojonation / mnet? [1]
The alternative Internet provided "for free" is the biggest boon to big government, ever! (well, almost... after fiat money). "Capitalist" $$investors are about to be eaten alive by fiat money that is not theirs which they soon cannot move... The clampdown will be, heh, SWIFT (sic).
heheh, it's going to be a fun ride. this also points to the "incentive" for big government to crush with extreme prejudice any such crypto-anarcho-capitalist digital economies. a robust and private economy of that sort would be popular, efficient, and a clear threat to fiat money control. decentralized, robust reputation metrics capable of defending against such adversaries are difficult, to put it mildly.
I spoke about this at HOPE6, I don't know if more than a couple of people in the audience even got an inkling of what the hell I was talking about. If they did, and are busy producing code, more power to them.
i wish i could have been there; sounds like an interesting talk. there is a lot more i'd like to discuss regarding digital bearer settlement, blinded digital cash, reputation metrics, and incentives for privacy preserving networks and services, but i'll have to save that for later, as the incentive of continued employment has overcome the incentive for enjoyable and enlightening conversation... ;) 0. "Reliable MIX Cascade Networks through Reputation" http://www.freehaven.net/doc/casc-rep/ 1. "Mnet" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnet
On Wed, Nov 29, 2006 at 11:43:03AM -0800, coderman wrote:
bootstrapping is hard, particularly when you must include a robust reputation metric. "anonymous digital gold tokens" is really too
Reputation is hard, because it's equivalent to a Turing test (humans are naturally scarce), or to a proof of work (which has inflationary issues due to Moore's law and forgeries by dedicated hardware, unless everyone runs an ASIC mint -- still wasteful in terms of wattage).
narrow, as what you seek is exactly a robust reputation / trust metric tied to the economy of peer interaction. digital cash is attractive because the reputation it embodies is fungible, but other forms of reputation are useful and may prove more effective in certain contexts, particularly when your adversary is well funded (think "creeping death attacks"). [0]
-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
coderman wrote:
On 11/29/06, rayservers <rayservers@gmail.com> wrote:
... Yes, and until the mixmaster nodes start to *charge* anonymous digital gold tokens for routing, and lets nodes gets into competition with each other to create a robotic free market, the Internet will be a baby eaten alive by Mighty Big Brother and mixmaster will be overrun by the tragedy of the commons...
bootstrapping is hard, particularly when you must include a robust reputation metric. "anonymous digital gold tokens" is really too narrow, as what you seek is exactly a robust reputation / trust metric tied to the economy of peer interaction. digital cash is attractive because the reputation it embodies is fungible, but other forms of reputation are useful and may prove more effective in certain contexts, particularly when your adversary is well funded (think "creeping death attacks"). [0]
Amongst the things I think will work, is an open source Skype style VoIP + IM + click to pay system. Reputation can be added to this, but if you are my buddy and I hear your voice, I will certainly be willing to click you some money. Major commercial companies will not care for the anonymity and can identify themselves to accept money.
Big Fat Hint: The above (pay for traffic nodes) will result in spam free untraceable email, robotic economically viable self extending wireless networks, Voip thats really secure and high quality, DDoS proof Internet, private p2p markets for commodities, stocks etc... etc. Now, if there are investors out there... speak up.
oh, if it were so simple! payment alone is not sufficient, this [dark|anonymous|private]net requires robust reputation and usability too. payment is part of that equation, but other incentives to participate and contribute must be addressed. remember mojonation / mnet? [1]
Usability? Think Skype.
The alternative Internet provided "for free" is the biggest boon to big government, ever! (well, almost... after fiat money). "Capitalist" $$investors are about to be eaten alive by fiat money that is not theirs which they soon cannot move... The clampdown will be, heh, SWIFT (sic).
heheh, it's going to be a fun ride. this also points to the "incentive" for big government to crush with extreme prejudice any such crypto-anarcho-capitalist digital economies. a robust and private economy of that sort would be popular, efficient, and a clear threat to fiat money control. decentralized, robust reputation metrics capable of defending against such adversaries are difficult, to put it mildly.
Again, think Skype. Its the best thing out there in the wild that demonstrates that crypto can be user friendly and invisible. Unfortunately since its closed source, /I/ certainly won't trust it. And I don't see why it has to be closed source, an open source equivalent that provides quality service and charges for it, will work better and spread faster (make money selling your bandwidth while your computer is idle).
I spoke about this at HOPE6, I don't know if more than a couple of people in the audience even got an inkling of what the hell I was talking about. If they did, and are busy producing code, more power to them.
i wish i could have been there; sounds like an interesting talk. there is a lot more i'd like to discuss regarding digital bearer settlement, blinded digital cash, reputation metrics, and incentives for privacy preserving networks and services, but i'll have to save that for later, as the incentive of continued employment has overcome the incentive for enjoyable and enlightening conversation... ;)
I think that the time is now finally getting ripe for selling secure computers into the market. There was zero interest for many years and Linux was not usable... Ubuntu Linux (including Mozilla FF and Openoffice.org) has changed this quite a bit.
0. "Reliable MIX Cascade Networks through Reputation" http://www.freehaven.net/doc/casc-rep/
1. "Mnet" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnet
Mnet looks cool, although I never tried it. Cheers, ---Venkat.
On Mon, Dec 04, 2006 at 08:18:31AM -0500, rayservers wrote:
Amongst the things I think will work, is an open source Skype style VoIP + IM + click to pay system. Reputation can be added to this, but if you
Reputation is hard, because bits are not naturally scarce, unless you're running a mint, which is a single point of attack/failure. Unless you consider proof of work or a Turing test. Both still have their problems, simply because both computer and people proof of work have such a large real price spread. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
participants (6)
-
coderman -
Eugen Leitl -
R.A. Hettinga -
rayservers -
Tyler Durden -
Ulex Europae