First of all, the guy is a major dumbass...
My profile is radically different from all those who killed nearly 3,000 of my countrymen on September 11, 2001. My "holy book" of choice is the Bible. My race is Caucasian. I am a loyal, taxpaying, patriotic, evil-hating, English-as-first-language, natural-born American. If profiling were allowed, I wouldn't be the one filling out government forms to prove I'm not a terrorist. The other guys would.
I'm thinking that the state-of-the-art on Cypherpunks is such that no real comment here is necessary.
The arbitrariness of all of this makes me think the "security" system isn't very secure and that it is all a sham created by politicians to fool the public into believing they are protecting us. Meanwhile, millions cross our borders illegally, including untold numbers from countries that hate us.
This is precisely why Al-Qaeda sent 19 (or probably more) true-believers. Even if TSA lowers the odds, all you have to do is roll the dice many more times, and a few of the faithful will definitely get through the checkpoint. Security measures might stop a lone crazy, but the odds don't stand up if they send dozens of people into airports all around the country. And Iraq II is promising us a bumper crop of new 'terrorists'. Seems to me it's going to be much easier for the US to stop fucking around over there. Oh wait, we can't do that because "then the terrorists have won". Waitaminute...doesn't Algeria prove that terrorism wins, eventually? -TD
From: "R.A. Hettinga" <rah@shipwright.com> To: cypherpunks@al-qaeda.net, cryptography@metzdowd.com Subject: Airport insanity Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:08:59 -0400
<http://www.townhall.com/columnists/calthomas/printct20041013.shtml>
Townhall.com
Airport insanity Cal Thomas (back to web version) | Send
October 13, 2004
Ted Kennedy and I have something in common. We are both on airline lists as potential terror suspects.
Kennedy was recently denied access to a US Airways flight out of Washington, one he has taken for 40 years.
I am on a US Airways list of some type that apparently requires airline employees to take my driver's license behind closed doors, have a conference and then stamp my ticket with a code that mandates my person and my carry-on bag be searched. Every time I fly, which is sometimes several times a week. I especially appreciate the crotch grab to make sure I'm not hiding any weapons of mass destruction. How would you like to be the trainer for this procedure?
The idiocy virus is now spreading to other airlines. It seems someone who shares my name is wanted by authorities. I hope he is getting some of my hate mail. Logic should dictate that once I prove I am not the guy they are looking for, they would take me off the suspect list. But, no, our misnamed Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is anything but logical.
US Airways gives me a TSA phone number to call. I am not surprised when a machine answers. The machine promises a "prompt" response. I leave a message. There is no response. A few days later, I call again. Same recording, same message, same non-response. I send an e-mail to TSA. This time I receive an "automated reply," assuring me of a prompt response. Two days later, I receive another e-mail informing me I will have to fill out a form to prove I am not a terrorist. This is an interesting twist on the "innocent until proven guilty" standard in law.
The confusion plot thickens. Two weeks ago, TSA approved my application for "registered traveler" status as part of an experimental program at some airports for frequent travelers. I recorded my "eye print" and fingerprint, and now a machine can identify me and allow me to go to the head of the security line, but only at the airport where I applied.
Other participating airports require applications to be made at each of those airports, even though the paperwork presumably goes to TSA headquarters. Why can't TSA look at that one application that has been approved and take me off their "watch list," or whatever they call it? Is "logic" not in government dictionaries?
Things have become so ridiculous on the road that a TSA screener in Duluth, Minn., last week required me to open my computer bag, whereupon she used one of those devices that resemble a deodorant pad and wiped every electrical cord. When I asked why, she responded, "The downed Russian airliners." When I noted that Duluth was the only airport in the country where my electrical cords had been wiped, she replied, "Everyone is supposed to."
The arbitrariness of all of this makes me think the "security" system isn't very secure and that it is all a sham created by politicians to fool the public into believing they are protecting us. Meanwhile, millions cross our borders illegally, including untold numbers from countries that hate us.
Why isn't the Bush administration doing something about illegal immigration instead of pretending these people are coming here solely to do manual labor we native Americans don't want to do? Wouldn't we be safer if we prevented those who wish us harm from getting into the country?
Thanks to Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta's misguided policy of refusing to profile travelers, we get equal opportunity inconvenience and stupidity. Imagine if cops were prohibited from describing gender, race or other physical characteristics when broadcasting an all-points bulletin for a suspect.
My profile is radically different from all those who killed nearly 3,000 of my countrymen on September 11, 2001. My "holy book" of choice is the Bible. My race is Caucasian. I am a loyal, taxpaying, patriotic, evil-hating, English-as-first-language, natural-born American. If profiling were allowed, I wouldn't be the one filling out government forms to prove I'm not a terrorist. The other guys would.
This is an outrage! The form will soon be in the mail. They'll probably send me a note assuring me of a prompt reply, before misplacing the application. Senator Kennedy, can you help?
-- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
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--
My profile is radically different from all those who killed nearly 3,000 of my countrymen on September 11, 2001. My "holy book" of choice is the Bible. My race is Caucasian. I am a loyal, taxpaying, patriotic, evil-hating, English-as-first-language, natural-born American. If profiling were allowed, I wouldn't be the one filling out government forms to prove I'm not a terrorist. The other guys would.
On 15 Oct 2004 at 10:02, Tyler Durden wrote:
I'm thinking that the state-of-the-art on Cypherpunks is such that no real comment here is necessary.
Has anyone who does not look a terrorist done a suicide mission outside Israel or Russia? Recall the shoe bomber. You just had to look at him. You would think the airport screeners would need to be half brain dead to let him on the plane. Come to think of it, they are half brain dead, but laws that require them to pretend to be stupider than they actually are do not help.
This is precisely why Al-Qaeda sent 19 (or probably more) true-believers. Even if TSA lowers the odds, all you have to do is roll the dice many more times, and a few of the faithful will definitely get through the checkpoint.
Just don't let anyone who looks like the shoe bomber fly. Problem solved. A restaurant should be able to turn away those whose looks they do not like, and an airline likewise. There are probably a few innocents in Guantenamo, but they released at least one Al Quaeda terrorist who promptly got back in business murdering large numbers of people, and was caught doing it - so presumably they have released lots of others who have committed lots of murders, and not been caught doing it. Anyone who was non Afghan and in Afghanistan in the middle of the war without a good explanation should have been executed by the Northern Alliance or imprisoned permanently in Guatenamo. Yes, I do support internment, as wartime measure, during real war, against an ethnically based enemy. Similarly I support shelling enemies who surround themselves with captive women and children, as Sadr did in Najaf. That hostage crisis was ended by negotiation, but because the administration were reluctant to shell the mosque, the deal was settled on very unfavorable terms. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG wI0xr9ayXv/a3zae3P/aa8cP2yCVMsnUHEQvlSZ4 4biccsub2YZowuf9Kq6OzR5YpJQrEGdamGR4hGonc
Thus spake James A. Donald (jamesd@echeque.com) [15/10/04 15:19]: : Has anyone who does not look a terrorist done a suicide mission : outside Israel or Russia? Recall the shoe bomber. You just : had to look at him. You would think the airport screeners would : need to be half brain dead to let him on the plane. Come to : think of it, they are half brain dead, but laws that require : them to pretend to be stupider than they actually are do not : help. I've had more than one comment about my ID photos that amount to basically: "You look like you've just left a terrorist training camp." For whatever reason, pictures of me always come out looking like some crazed religious fanatic. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to bomb anything. And I sure hope that I'm not going to be detained or denied entry because of how I *look*, alone.
Most of the Boston Red Sox team look as if they have just come from a terrorist training camp for blind, handless barbers, decked-out in ill-fitting sports gear, staring wild-eyed at RPGs being fired at their heads and nuts, swinging clubs futilely at the inerrant missiles, their ass-wipe paws swollen into giant shit-covered patties, muttering homicidal jihads against devil-bred yankees.
At 3:55 PM -0700 10/15/04, John Young wrote:
Most of the Boston Red Sox team look as if they have just come from a terrorist training camp for blind, handless barbers, decked-out in ill-fitting sports gear, staring wild-eyed at RPGs being fired at their heads and nuts, swinging clubs futilely at the inerrant missiles, their ass-wipe paws swollen into giant shit-covered patties, muttering homicidal jihads against devil-bred yankees.
Yeah, but just wait until next year... ;-) Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
--- John Young <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:
Most of the Boston Red Sox team look as if they have just come from a terrorist training camp for blind, handless barbers, decked-out in ill-fitting sports gear, staring wild-eyed at RPGs being fired at their heads and nuts, swinging clubs futilely at the inerrant missiles, their ass-wipe paws swollen into giant shit-covered patties, muttering homicidal jihads against devil-bred yankees.
Our Maple Leafs' hockey team might look similarly if it weren't for the lockout. As it is, all of our players are well-fed and well-rested (if a little restless, ha ha ha). I imagine they have no trouble whatsoever convincing airport security of their benignity when they flit about on their vactions. We might as well face it. Whether one is designated as resembling a terrorist or not, according to security screeners, is really a matter of random happenstance in many cases. Did you purchase a 12ga Remington Defender sometime in the last twenty years? No? Well then please step onboard. Yes? Oh, well you're going to have to wait while we send your thong to the lab for analysis, Mr. Alleged, just to check for accelerant or explosives residue. Net result? Just one more obstacle on the highway of life. Ho hum. Regards, Steve ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
I've had more than one comment about my ID photos that amount to basically: "You look like you've just left a terrorist training camp." For whatever reason, pictures of me always come out looking like some crazed religious fanatic. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to bomb anything. And I sure hope that I'm not going to be detained or denied entry because of how I *look*, alone. No, of course not. even if you had a turban, carried a koran and your briefcase made a suspicious ticking noise, that would be *profiling* and
Damian Gerow wrote: therefore bad. Now, if your name happened to sound like someone who doesn't look like you, but a FBI agent had once misheard in passing... that would get you detained.
-- James A. Donald:
Has anyone who does not look a terrorist done a suicide mission outside Israel or Russia? Recall the shoe bomber. You just had to look at him. You would think the airport screeners would need to be half brain dead to let him on the plane. Come to think of it, they are half brain dead, but laws that require them to pretend to be stupider than they actually are do not help.
Damian Gerow
I've had more than one comment about my ID photos that amount to basically: "You look like you've just left a terrorist training camp."
Nonetheless you can probably start fiddling with your shoes on a plane without the passengers seated near you jumping you.
For whatever reason, pictures of me always come out looking like some crazed religious fanatic. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to bomb anything. And I sure hope that I'm not going to be detained or denied entry because of how I *look*, alone.
If you really look like the shoe bomber, then you should have to drive, or use public transport. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG OSAEtsROBjQx7D9gY/VOYIR6gP2XT4W4uGtNsB+l 4IvEFcdiZu/zuBnyVhVYTnXbtIfk7mIE7YK5jQFN7
Thus spake James A. Donald (jamesd@echeque.com) [16/10/04 14:33]: : > I've had more than one comment about my ID photos that amount : > to basically: "You look like you've just left a terrorist : > training camp." : : Nonetheless you can probably start fiddling with your shoes on : a plane without the passengers seated near you jumping you. Perhaps, I don't know. But we're not talking about the other passengers, we're talking about screening based on looks, no? : > For whatever reason, pictures of me always come out looking : > like some crazed religious fanatic. But that doesn't mean : > that I'm going to bomb anything. And I sure hope that I'm : > not going to be detained or denied entry because of how I : > *look*, alone. : : If you really look like the shoe bomber, then you should have : to drive, or use public transport. So by that rationale, every Arab should have to drive or use public transport? Oh, and every white American (recall numerous references to Mr. McVeigh), too. Shit, by that rationale, the only people allowed left to fly will be cats and dogs. Just not pit bulls.
-- Damian Gerow
I've had more than one comment about my ID photos that amount to basically: "You look like you've just left a terrorist training camp."
James A. Donald:
Nonetheless you can probably start fiddling with your shoes on a plane without the passengers seated near you jumping you.
Damian Gerow
Perhaps, I don't know. But we're not talking about the other passengers, we're talking about screening based on looks, no?
When the other passengers jumped the shoe bomber, they were screening based on looks.
So by that rationale, every Arab should have to drive?
Every young male Arab past puberty, with a few exceptions for special cases.
Oh, and every white American (recall numerous references to Mr. McVeigh)
Mc Veigh did not target innocents, and if he did target a plane full of innocents, perhaps in order to kill one guilty man on board, there is no way in hell he himself would be on that plane. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG SctyT6AMk6jzONQcbBrn1oGEBCejpOtCC/nsGPQk 4z3Lf7lP4Ga/hyRqICf9o0gSKTkO+1Sl3szjRgoxV
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, James A. Donald wrote:
If you really look like the shoe bomber, then you should have to drive, or use public transport.
Ever tried to drive to Europe? Or to Hawaii? Why airplanes don't count as a form of public transport?
So by that rationale, every Arab should have to drive?
Every young male Arab past puberty, with a few exceptions for special cases.
This is a measure good for pissing off (which is often the first step to radicalizing) the quite secularized majority of American Arabs. You also seem to forget there is another potential factor - not only the visible one (ethnicity), but also one that isn't obvious to visual evaluation - religion. There is a significant black minority that inclines to Islam, some of them potentially radical. Do you want to suggest banning blacks from flying too? If so, what reaction are you expecting to get?
-- James A. Donald:
If you really look like the shoe bomber, then you should have to drive, or use public transport.
Thomas Shaddack
Ever tried to drive to Europe? Or to Hawaii?
Hard biscuit
Why airplanes don't count as a form of public transport?
They do.
This is a measure good for pissing off (which is often the first step to radicalizing) the quite secularized majority of American Arabs.
The proposition that we need to walk delicately for fear of disturbing the tender sensibilities of arabs seems laughable. Are the arabs walking delicately to avoid offending our sensibilities?
You also seem to forget there is another potential factor - not only the visible one (ethnicity), but also one that isn't obvious to visual evaluation - religion. There is a significant black minority that inclines to Islam, some of them potentially radical. Do you want to suggest banning blacks from flying too?
Seen any black suicide bombers? Black Muslim radicalism tends to express itself by mugging Jews and stealing television sets. Strapping dynamite to one's chest just does not seem to be a black thing. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG uLiSKEXFvsVnqDyPsqAGijbT0mXs6uHpYOBtYg/0 4Q3Bb6ObO9F9G9008I8Z1Au4iNO8XH/JLmEyqrcqP
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004, James A. Donald wrote:
-- James A. Donald:
If you really look like the shoe bomber, then you should have to drive, or use public transport.
Thomas Shaddack
Ever tried to drive to Europe? Or to Hawaii?
Hard biscuit
Do I interpret this statement correctly as the endorsement of ethnicity-based travel restrictions? Didn't domething like this been here already, in the form of Jim Crow laws, and later found unconstitutional?
Why airplanes don't count as a form of public transport?
They do.
I am afraid either I don't understand you correctly, or you are contradicting yourself. The "...or use public transport" from your earlier statement seems to mean that you said something along the lines "if they can't fly, they should use public transportation, which includes airplanes".
This is a measure good for pissing off (which is often the first step to radicalizing) the quite secularized majority of American Arabs.
The proposition that we need to walk delicately for fear of disturbing the tender sensibilities of arabs seems laughable.
Being told I can't use some quite common resource, in this case an important means of transportation, because of so irrelevant factor as ethnicity, isn't exactly delicate. What would you do if you'd be in the receiving end of such policy? Add more such restrictions and some percolating time - would you just bow and obey? How long it would take to get you pissed and eventually revolting?
Are the arabs walking delicately to avoid offending our sensibilities?
Vast majority of them yes. But you don't perceive them because they don't offend you and don't make the news.
You also seem to forget there is another potential factor - not only the visible one (ethnicity), but also one that isn't obvious to visual evaluation - religion. There is a significant black minority that inclines to Islam, some of them potentially radical. Do you want to suggest banning blacks from flying too?
Seen any black suicide bombers?
Not yet. But maybe I just didn't look deep enough through the mass-medial fog of the terrorism "war".
Black Muslim radicalism tends to express itself by mugging Jews and stealing television sets. Strapping dynamite to one's chest just does not seem to be a black thing.
With the proper leadership, everything is possible. Don't forget the WW2 kamikaze pilots, who weren't quite Arabs.
-- James A. Donald:
If you really look like the shoe bomber, then you should have to drive.
Thomas Shaddack
Ever tried to drive to Europe? Or to Hawaii?
James A. Donald:
Hard biscuit
Thomas Shaddack
Do I interpret this statement correctly as the endorsement of ethnicity-based travel restrictions?
No. You can take a boat, if they will have you, drive to Mexico to fly with people less likely to be the target of mad bombers who look like you, hire a private plane, or take a long swim.
Why airplanes don't count as a form of public transport?
They do.
I am afraid either I don't understand you correctly, or you are contradicting yourself.
I was unclear. To clarify: So far the terrorists have not struck at buses outside Israel. When they do start striking at buses, then people who look like mad bombers should not be allowed on buses. Until then, they should be allowed on buses.
The proposition that we need to walk delicately for fear of disturbing the tender sensibilities of arabs seems laughable.
Being told I can't use some quite common resource, in this case an important means of transportation, because of so irrelevant factor as ethnicity, isn't exactly delicate.
A very large number of muslims, particularly arab muslims- a small minority in the US, a large minority or substantial majority in many muslim countries, continually seek to confront the infidel in a wide variety of ways, and interpret our politeness and care to avoid harming muslims as weakness and fear. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Kn476w4tT/gvivWH76W69/lBhHE5o0IKQ1oYJggS 4AiBUDha46+ldVnTeFiyvMwJoG9A/oE/Ac0FEd/uH
There is still of course the matter of the unexploded bombs in that building that were dug out, and that the ATF received a "Don't come in to work" page on their beepers, and the seize and classification of all surveilance video tapes from things like ATM's across the street. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. /|\ \|/ :They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country /\|/\ <--*-->:and our people, and neither do we." -G. W. Bush, 2004.08.05 \/|\/ /|\ : \|/ + v + : War is Peace, freedom is slavery, Bush is President. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sat, 16 Oct 2004, James A. Donald wrote:
Mc Veigh did not target innocents, and if he did target a plane full of innocents, perhaps in order to kill one guilty man on board, there is no way in hell he himself would be on that plane.
On 2004-10-16T22:12:52-0400, Sunder wrote:
There is still of course the matter of the unexploded bombs in that building that were dug out, and that the ATF received a "Don't come in to work" page on their beepers, and the seize and classification of all surveilance video tapes from things like ATM's across the street.
Sources? -- The old must give way to the new, falsehood must become exposed by truth, and truth, though fought, always in the end prevails. -- L. Ron Hubbard
RTFGoogle? Google revealed: http://www.jubilee-newspaper.com/atf_last_operation.htm http://www.constitution.org/okc/jdt03-01.htm http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/qa/23076.html http://www.lpsf.org/LPSF_Newsletters/nl_10_01.html http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:vrlZD0TAzU8J:www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ac7e1b57dbf.htm+ATF+paged+not+to+come+in+to+work+murrah&hl=en http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/proof-of-coverup.html http://www.uwsa.com/pipermail/uwsa/2001q2/006627.html and so on. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. /|\ \|/ :They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country /\|/\ <--*-->:and our people, and neither do we." -G. W. Bush, 2004.08.05 \/|\/ /|\ : \|/ + v + : War is Peace, freedom is slavery, Bush is President. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 18 Oct 2004, Justin wrote:
On 2004-10-16T22:12:52-0400, Sunder wrote:
There is still of course the matter of the unexploded bombs in that building that were dug out, and that the ATF received a "Don't come in to work" page on their beepers, and the seize and classification of all surveilance video tapes from things like ATM's across the street.
Sources?
-- The old must give way to the new, falsehood must become exposed by truth, and truth, though fought, always in the end prevails. -- L. Ron Hubbard
Damian Gerow
I've had more than one comment about my ID photos that amount to basically: "You look like you've just left a terrorist training camp."
As Erma Bombeck wrote, by the time you look like your passport photo, it's time to come home from vacation. An extra couple of red-eye flights don't help, either. At 11:27 AM 10/16/2004, James A. Donald wrote:
If you really look like the shoe bomber, then you should have to drive, or use public transport.
James misspoke here - the only public air transport I'm aware of in the US is run by the military, and or if he meant that people who look like shaggy-haired Brits with real leather shoes should be banned from privately-run transportation systems like airplanes and Greyhound, that pretty much leaves Amtrack as the only long-distance transport option for civilians, since city and county busses normally don't go very far. At 11:27 AM 10/16/2004, James A. Donald wrote:
Provided the number of people you throw off planes is rather small, I don't see the problem.
Personally, as a relatively frequent flyer, I worry much more about things like cutting corners of fuselage and engine maintenance and quality of fuel (and, perhaps even more, the quality of onboard coffee) than about bombers on board. Unfortunately, cutting the quality of the onboard coffee means that you're more likely to look like a shoe-bomber by the time the
Depends a lot on how high up the planes are when you throw them off... There's the concept of "due process of law" that the Bush administration isn't very familiar with that determines when you're Constitutionally permitted to deprive people of their liberties. At 11:38 AM 10/18/2004, Thomas Shaddack wrote: plane arrives. ---- Bill Stewart bill.stewart@pobox.com
Thus spake James A. Donald (jamesd@echeque.com) [15/10/04 15:19]:
[laws making stupidity mandatory for gov't officials]
I've had more than one comment about my ID photos
--- Damian Gerow <dgerow@afflictions.org> wrote: that amount to basically: "You look like you've just left a terrorist training camp." For whatever reason, pictures of me always come out looking like some crazed religious fanatic. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to bomb anything. And I sure hope that I'm not going to be detained or denied entry because of how I *look*, alone. Way back when phrenology was all the rage they did not have terrorists. Since it is evidently vital to the security of the state for its officials to have the capability of committing arbitrary civil rights violations, I can see a need for the resurrection of phrenology, suitably updated, as a screening tool. The shape of your head; the cadence of your gait; the way your eyes shift according to carefully structured stimulae, and of course your spending patterns -- all these things will help the cause of profiling. Remember: petty inconveniences that make travel on average less pleasant and more onerous are not at all intended to facilitate tightened centralised control of civilian life. That it may actually do so is an unintended side-effect. As for me, I have resigned myself to the current lamentable state of world affairs. Until the world's policeman finishes flushing the terrorists out into the open for the purpose of apprehension, we will all have to make sacrifices for the greater good. Regards, Steve ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
participants (11)
-
Bill Stewart -
Damian Gerow -
Dave Howe -
James A. Donald -
John Young -
Justin -
R.A. Hettinga -
Steve Thompson -
Sunder -
Thomas Shaddack -
Tyler Durden