Declan offers his motion to quash the feds subpoena: http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/motion.032901.html Worth reading not for the customary hoary press privilege, but for the protection requested to avoid what Jim Bell allegedly wants to use McCullagh for, and for Declan's affirmation that he covers the " 'cypherpunk' movement," gathering and archiving information for future use. Did you write this yourself Declan or your mouthpiece working alone without privileged sources about what you intend for the "cypherpunk movement?" WTF movement, by the way is being alleged and what is the evidence being concocted? Smells like the feds are feeding the evidentiaries all around the legal and press privileged pigtroughs, jesus fucking christ.
On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:35:24AM -0500, John Young wrote:
... intend for the "cypherpunk movement?" WTF movement, by the way is being alleged and what is the evidence being concocted?
WTF movement indeed. One of the biggest tactics of the feds seems to be creating a "movement" or some other sort of organization, then accusing people of leading, supporting, creating or otherwise being a part of it. I can think of lots of examples.... Steve Jackson Games, DeCSS, EarthFirst, OK city, etc. (It's not just for geeks, that's for sure). The theory of a "movement" is part of the FUD surrounding Bell. It's not that HE's assassinating people, but that his "followers" might. Subpoenas getting email addresses for Cypherpunks subscribers might not be part of Bell's case, but are easy to imagine for similar federal witch hunts. Welcome to the "movement." -- Greg
Greg wrote:
One of the biggest tactics of the feds seems to be creating a "movement" or some other sort of organization, then accusing people of leading, supporting, creating or otherwise being a part of it.
Hey, I don't know about you guys, but I participate in a Cypherpunk DISCUSSION group. At least, that's what it says on my Cypherpunk charter membership certificate, ID card and secret decoder ring. S a n d y
Sandy wrote:
Hey, I don't know about you guys, but I participate in a Cypherpunk DISCUSSION group. At least, that's what it says on my Cypherpunk charter membership certificate, ID card and secret decoder ring.
Doesn't matter what you know, what matters is the evidence provided by others about a cypherpunk movment. Its most reputable actors, its most convincing statements, its most celebrated manifestos, its most publicized threats to the commonweal. Declan's motion to quash, and the evidence it claims Declan has about the cypherpunk movement, are perfect examples of how a movement is turned into a conspiracy. By turning state's evidence upon advice of an attorney, upon advice of your boss. This happened with Time and it is happening with Wired. As with many prior squeezings of confidants. Not much Declan can do about it if he wants to remain a journalist paid regularly to get those desiring press coverage to tell him secrets or simulations thereof. Not single Declan out for this, the same is true of Jessica Stern, 60 minutes, or anybody who claims they are privileged, trust me, that is, your lawyer. Let me introduce Mr. Jones. In the Bin Laden trial yesterday the day's testimony was about the similarity of acts of war by the US and terrorism by bin Laden's followers. With Judge Sand and a defense attorney going at it (while the jury was not present): http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-24.htm As often discussed here, freedom fighter is synonymous with terrorist. As Jim Bell argues in his briefs, he was the one stalked by the feds. As Declan has said, Jim was doing what Declan does, gathering information on the federal terrorism movement. Question remains of who Declan will side with, as with any privileged party, when the wires are attached to privates to assure truthtelling.
John Young <jya@pipeline.com> wrote:
As often discussed here, freedom fighter is synonymous with terrorist. As Jim Bell argues in his briefs, he was the one stalked by the feds.
This stuff is hardly new- If you're going to engage in anti-governmental activity, even just speech, you're going to be a target of the investigatory police state. On a routine basis I'm approached by what I consider either agents or agents provocateurs, both online and off, with an offer of some sort of illegal activity. Usually they involve an offer of an illegal drug or an offer or a plea to help them convert a firearm to full auto. I politely inform them that those activities are illegal and I wouldn't be interested in them anyway (Which I'm not). I've even outed a couple on occasion- Once at a local civil rights meeting and another at a national machine gun shoot (Knob creek, KY). Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, 2175 Bayfield Drive, Columbus, OH 43229 (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************
On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:34:52PM -0500, John Young wrote:
Declan's motion to quash, and the evidence it claims Declan has about the cypherpunk movement, are perfect
John is reading far more into this than exists, and his conspiracy theorizing is working overtime. The "evidence" I have is nothing more than my cypherpunks inbox and notes I may or may not have retained from conversations with Jim Bell, that's all. The language in my motion is standard journalist quash-this-please. -Declan
Ah I see. So your editor confused the cpunks printouts you use for TP for the actual mailing list...a natural mistake for a journalist, they can never get the quote right :) And no, I don't think Declan meant anything by 'movement' other than a shared interest and motivation to participate (and they were saying on the news just last nite the government wanted their citizens to participate). ____________________________________________________________________ Beware gentle knight, there is no greater monster than reason. Miguel de Cervantes The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote:
On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:34:52PM -0500, John Young wrote:
Declan's motion to quash, and the evidence it claims Declan has about the cypherpunk movement, are perfect
John is reading far more into this than exists, and his conspiracy theorizing is working overtime. The "evidence" I have is nothing more than my cypherpunks inbox and notes I may or may not have retained from conversations with Jim Bell, that's all. The language in my motion is standard journalist quash-this-please.
-Declan
At 12:34 PM 3/30/01 -0500, John Young wrote:
Doesn't matter what you know, what matters is the evidence provided by others about a cypherpunk movment. Its most reputable actors, its most convincing statements, its most celebrated manifestos, its most publicized threats to the commonweal.
Save that the Feds have no interest in proceeding against any list posters with cash and brains (or perhaps self-control). They have only arrested two very tangential participants with neither cash nor self control. They won't proceed against others because they would lose to a full defense and they know it. Maybe there are some other JB's or CJ's on the list. Any candidates? Those might be endangered but no one else. DCF ---- Orbis non sufficit
DCF wrote:
Save that the Feds have no interest in proceeding against any list posters with cash and brains (or perhaps self-control).
I think the Bell case indicates the need for Cypherpunks to start writing code again, and stop engaging in meatspace theatrics. Then no one would be on trial, and there wouldn't be a thing any government could do to stop it. Cypherpunks should be about creating and disseminating technology which permits the most complex plans and activities of the most widely disseminated group of persons, to be as safe from state interference as a single individual's private thoughts. Let's not get distracted from that goal by the fact that a couple of the list's more confrontational members are being picked off by an Self-Important Treasury Agent and a Senile Luddite Judge. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
At 9:51 AM -0700 4/10/01, Eric Cordian wrote:
DCF wrote:
Save that the Feds have no interest in proceeding against any list posters with cash and brains (or perhaps self-control).
I think the Bell case indicates the need for Cypherpunks to start writing code again, and stop engaging in meatspace theatrics.
First, Bell's actions are not the actions of most members of this mailing list. Frankly, this is a logical error: referring to "Cypherpunks" as a collective entity and then imputing the views or actions of a few to be the views or actions of the collective entity. The government does this routinely.
Then no one would be on trial, and there wouldn't be a thing any government could do to stop it.
Second, talk to Phil Z. and Kelly G. about their legal issues for several years, as the government sought to prosecute one or both of them for violations of the ITARs (and maybe more). True, neither was ultimately charged. Their legal bills were substantial, however, and they could have face prison time and massive fines. Whatever people do in the way of writing code, doing it as near to untraceably as possible would seem to be the way to go. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:08:39AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
At 9:51 AM -0700 4/10/01, Eric Cordian wrote:
DCF wrote:
Save that the Feds have no interest in proceeding against any list posters with cash and brains (or perhaps self-control).
I think the Bell case indicates the need for Cypherpunks to start writing code again, and stop engaging in meatspace theatrics.
First, Bell's actions are not the actions of most members of this mailing list. Frankly, this is a logical error: referring to "Cypherpunks" as a collective entity and then imputing the views or actions of a few to be the views or actions of the collective entity. The government does this routinely.
I believe this is called a 'reification' error -- a logical fallacy where the 'treatment of an analytic or abstract relationship as though it were a concrete entity' (young. p 109 from principia cybernetica). jim
Tim May Wrote:
I think the Bell case indicates the need for Cypherpunks to start writing code again, and stop engaging in meatspace theatrics.
First, Bell's actions are not the actions of most members of this mailing list. Frankly, this is a logical error: referring to "Cypherpunks" as a collective entity and then imputing the views or actions of a few to be the views or actions of the collective entity. The government does this routinely.
Well, I never use "Cypherpunks" to mean anything other than "those presently subscribed to the list." It's just shorter to type. It's much like saying that some.newsgroup needs to stop gratuitous crossposting. It is not implied by that statement that some.newsgroup is a collective entity defined by anything more than readership, or that everyone in some.newsgroup is engaging in the problematical behavior.
Second, talk to Phil Z. and Kelly G. about their legal issues for several years, as the government sought to prosecute one or both of them for violations of the ITARs (and maybe more). True, neither was ultimately charged. Their legal bills were substantial, however, and they could have face prison time and massive fines.
Whatever people do in the way of writing code, doing it as near to untraceably as possible would seem to be the way to go.
Fine, change the motto to "Cypherpunks anonymously write code." -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Greg wrote:
One of the biggest tactics of the feds seems to be creating a "movement" or some other sort of organization, then accusing people of leading, supporting, creating or otherwise being a part of it.
Hey, I don't know about you guys, but I participate in a Cypherpunk DISCUSSION group. At least, that's what it says on my Cypherpunk charter membership certificate, ID card and secret decoder ring.
You mean you didn't get the hat? I thought everyone got the hat. Fancy not having the hat. Whatever next? I'd watch out if I were you - Comrade Number One might be going to denounce you at the next Central Committee meeting. Ken
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Greg Newby wrote:
The theory of a "movement" is part of the FUD surrounding Bell. It's not that HE's assassinating people, but that his "followers" might.
blink blink. Bell? "followers?" While I'm willing to be polite to most people on mailing lists, and occasionally find interest in the things (especially the things contrary to established rules of "sanity") that they say, I cannot *imagine* anyone actually becoming a "follower" of a person such as Jim Bell. Even setting aside for a few moments the inherent goofiness of AP (which they seem to be implying that this is about) Bell simply doesn't exhibit any leadership characteristics. At least not in anything I've read. His writings give me the impression of a man too antisocial to remain on good terms with any would-be "followers." Bear
My attorney at Gibson Dunn wrote the brief, and I think it speaks for itself. -Declan On Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 10:35:24AM -0500, John Young wrote:
Declan offers his motion to quash the feds subpoena:
http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/motion.032901.html
Worth reading not for the customary hoary press privilege, but for the protection requested to avoid what Jim Bell allegedly wants to use McCullagh for, and for Declan's affirmation that he covers the " 'cypherpunk' movement," gathering and archiving information for future use.
Did you write this yourself Declan or your mouthpiece working alone without privileged sources about what you intend for the "cypherpunk movement?" WTF movement, by the way is being alleged and what is the evidence being concocted? Smells like the feds are feeding the evidentiaries all around the legal and press privileged pigtroughs, jesus fucking christ.
participants (12)
-
Declan McCullagh -
Duncan Frissell -
Eric Cordian -
Greg Newby -
Jim Burnes -
Jim Choate -
John Young -
Ken Brown -
Matthew Gaylor -
Ray Dillinger -
Sandy Sandfort -
Tim May