Speaking of the Geneva convention
From the beginning, Guantanamo Bay was wrought with strife. The Geneva Convention, with its guarantee of certain fundamental rights for all prisoners of war, was quickly sidelined by the Administration in favor of its own rules for
December 15, 2003 Uncle Sambs Guantanamo Prison: Outside the Rule of Law http://www.independent.org/tii/news/031215ONeil.html By Brigid ObNeil* The latest news from Guantanamo Bay is beginning to sound like a modern-day Simpsons episode. After two years of imprisoning more than 600 alleged enemy combatants without charge or counsel in a Cuban prison camp, the Administration announced earlier this month that two detainees -- one a U.S. citizen -- would be permitted limited access to an attorney. As any Simpsons buff will tell you, itbs a classic Mr. Burns move: put on a show of improving work conditions at the nuclear power plant by dressing Homer in thermal underwear. While it might be an amusing tag line typical of the most noxious character in the Simpsons repertoire, itbs a sad metaphor for the U.S. governmentbs abysmal treatment of designated enemy combatants. News of the American prisonerbs counsel came one day before the Justice Department filed a brief at the Supreme Court, adding to suspicions about the Administrationbs motives. Their brief asks the court to affirm the governmentbs i ndefinite detention of Americans declared b enemy combatants,b without counsel or the ability to dispute the allegations. The Constitutional liberties at risk in this case, including the right to a fair trial and due process, constitute a grave danger for Americans and foreign nationals alike. And nowhere is the startling consequence of Constitutional b concessionsb more apparent than the state of Guantanamo Bay. the treatment and investigation of detainees. In the absence of any rule of law, it didnbt take long for the media to pick up reports of inhumane treatment -- or what one former intelligence officer brazenly called, b torture-lite.b These reports include: firing rubber bullets at those in restraints, beatings for anyone who b made a call to prayer,b sleep deprivation, and forced confessions. The situation became so dire that the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the only non-government organization to visit the camp, broke a long-standing policy of silence and called the prisoner circumstances an b intolerable situation.b After reading the latest official statements on the health of the detainees, it becomes shockingly clear why the ICRC took such an unprecedented move. According to national news reports, 35 detainees have attempted suicide, 110 have been placed on a suicide watch list, and 1 out of every 5 detainees now receive medication for what one military official can only describe as b clinical depression.b In response to such damning reports, the Administration contends that the detainees are dangerous terrorists and thus do not deserve any legal protections, much less liberal sympathies. But after two years of investigations at the camp, the Administration has yet to charge any detainee with a crime or bring a case before a military tribunal. Thus, the public has no way to determine what alleged crimes these men are charged with committing, much less whether or not they are guilty. In the absence of any formidable opposition to the Executive Branchbs actions, the Supreme Court has finally stepped into the ring. In a matter of months the Justices will decide two cases that will rule on a host of alleged constitutional abuses. In the first case, Padilla v. Rumsfeld, the Court will determine whether a U.S. citizen has the right to an attorney before disappearing into a military stockade without charges or contact with the outside world. The second case, involving the two appeals of Rasul v. Bush and Odah v. U.S., will decide if Guantanamo detainees can have access to civilian courts to challenge their detention. The most pressing issue in both cases calls into question the newly claimed Executive Branch power to detain any person indefinitely and without any recourse to judicial review. Given the blatant lack of any legal protections for these alleged combatants, it is no wonder that former prisoner-of-war Senator John McCain expressed concern this week about what he saw after a recent visit to Guantanamo. Even prisoners suspected of serious crimes deserve fair and open legal proceedings -- after all, our very Constitution was founded on the right to due process and a presumption of innocence. By holding suspected enemies to our highest rule of law and honoring established international treaties, we set a precedent for the treatment we expect of U.S. troops in enemy hands. To undermine this rule of law risks the very livelihood of our Constitution and threatens the way our citizens are treated both at home and abroad. No minor concessions by the U.S. government can change the impression that the secrecy and lack of due process for detainees at Guantanamo Bay resembles that of the Soviet gulags of old. And it doesnbt take the antics of a Mr. Burns or the gullibility of Homer Simpson to figure it out. *Brigid ObNeil is a researcher at the Center on Peace & Liberty at The Independent Institute in Oakland, California. For further articles and studies, see the War on Terrorism and OnPower.org.
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 Freematt357@aol.com wrote:
In response to such damning reports, the Administration contends that the detainees are dangerous terrorists and thus do not deserve any legal protections, much less liberal sympathies. But after two years of investigations at the camp, the Administration has yet to charge any detainee with a crime or bring a case before a military tribunal. Thus, the public has no way to determine what alleged crimes these men are charged with committing, much less whether or not they are guilty.
Interesting. If the prisoners at Guantanamo are POWs, why should they be charged with crimes? It is no crime to be an enemy soldier. However, customary practice is to lock POWs up until the conflict is over. This certainly is what happened in the two world wars, at least in Europe; it also happened during the Korean and Vietnam wars. If these are members of al-Quaeda and prisoners of war, should they not be released when and only when al-Quaeda declares the conflict over? Would not a US government releasing them before the end of the war be derelict in its duty? If they are instead unlawful combatants because they have violated the Geneva conventions (because they have carried arms in battle but discarded them and hid among civilians, say) or if they are spies (out of uniform, engaged in espionage), is the US not being somewhat charitable in treating them as POWs? If they are neither POWs nor unlawful combatants nor spies, if they are just terrorists, why is the US obliged to treat them as though they are in the United States? Presumably they were captured outside the US and were not taken into the US after capture. Why does the US military have to treat them as though they had US constitutional rights? They are not citizens or physically present in the United States. If any of those at Guantanamo is an American citizen, then of course he should be returned to the States and tried for carrying arms against his country. Treason, isn't it? Let us say that by agreement between the US and the Afghan government (which no one seems to deny is the rightful government of the country) terrorists captured in Afghanistan are being held in Guantanamo. Why should US law apply instead of Afghan law? I know for a fact that conditions in Afghan jails are nowhere near as comfortable as those in Guantanamo. An American friend of mine spent six months in a jail in Kabul. If you didn't buy food from the guards, you starved. If you bought coal from them to heat your cell -- tiny windows high in thick stone walls, so no real ventilation -- you were slowly poisoned by carbon monoxide. If you didn't, you froze. It's cold in Kabul in the winter. The beatings were free. -- Jim Dixon jdd@dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure
Jim Dixon wrote:
If the prisoners at Guantanamo are POWs, why should they be charged with crimes? It is no crime to be an enemy soldier.
According to the US Government though they are not soldiers. They are "unlawful enemy combattants".
However, customary practice is to lock POWs up until the conflict is over. This certainly is what happened in the two world wars, at least in Europe; it also happened during the Korean and Vietnam wars.
If these are members of al-Quaeda and prisoners of war, should they not be released when and only when al-Quaeda declares the conflict over? Would not a US government releasing them before the end of the war be derelict in its duty?
The war in Afghanistan is over. This is were they were caught. Thus they should be released, no? If they are terrorists and they have proof of this they should put them in front of a court (and I guess that should be a civil court, not a military tribunal as I don't quite see since when the US Army is performing law enforcement duties).
If they are instead unlawful combatants because they have violated the Geneva conventions (because they have carried arms in battle but discarded them and hid among civilians, say) or if they are spies (out of uniform, engaged in espionage), is the US not being somewhat charitable in treating them as POWs?
But they are not POWs by their own account. If they could be charged with any of these crimes above, then what takes two years to actually convict them?
If they are neither POWs nor unlawful combatants nor spies, if they are just terrorists, why is the US obliged to treat them as though they are in the United States? Presumably they were captured outside the US and were not taken into the US after capture. Why does the US military have to treat them as though they had US constitutional rights? They are not citizens or physically present in the United States.
Some of them ARE US Citizens. Others are citizens of other states. International Law means that if I (holding a German passport) have to be allowed to contact MY government in order to receive any aid that I might require. This right has not been given. Granted, I would not be protected under the rights of the US constitution, but I do have other rights and those are clearly violated as well.
If any of those at Guantanamo is an American citizen, then of course he should be returned to the States and tried for carrying arms against his country. Treason, isn't it?
Treason would need to be proofen. Considering that no charges have been brought forward after almost two years it is pretty clear (or at least appears to be) that there is no proof that any of these people did anything wrong.
Let us say that by agreement between the US and the Afghan government (which no one seems to deny is the rightful government of the country) terrorists captured in Afghanistan are being held in Guantanamo. Why should US law apply instead of Afghan law?
It doesn't. But if that would be the case than the captured Afghans should be returned to the Afghan authorities, why is this not happening?
I know for a fact that conditions in Afghan jails are nowhere near as comfortable as those in Guantanamo.
May as it be, but that still doesn't make the actions of the US Government right. Or are you telling me right now that Guantanamo Bay and Diego Garcia are part of a humanitarian mission?
An American friend of mine spent six months in a jail in Kabul. If you didn't buy food from the guards, you starved. If you bought coal from them to heat your cell -- tiny windows high in thick stone walls, so no real ventilation -- you were slowly poisoned by carbon monoxide. If you didn't, you froze. It's cold in Kabul in the winter.
Bad conditions, so help the Afghani government to improve the conditions. Michael
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Jim Dixon wrote: <SNIP>
Why does the US military have to treat them as though they had US constitutional rights? They are not citizens or physically present in the United States.
In a nutshell, our Constitution *recognizes* universal human rights. It does not *establish* these rights. If we are going to be faithful to this premise, physical location is a non-sequitor. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote:
Why does the US military have to treat them as though they had US constitutional rights? They are not citizens or physically present in the United States.
In a nutshell, our Constitution *recognizes* universal human rights. It does not *establish* these rights. If we are going to be faithful to this premise, physical location is a non-sequitor.
This is a valid and probably commendable political position. I do not believe, however, that it reflects current practice in the USA or elsewhere. I say "probably" because it seems likely that adopting this as a practice would have very high costs. How far would you have this go? Is the US government to be obligated to ensure these rights to everyone everywhere? Does this mean liberating slaves in China and Saudi Arabia, for example? Opening up Russian jails? Forcing countries everywhere to grant the vote to women, to educate children? Hmmm. Does the application of this principle mean that the US government is going to require the British government to recognize the right to keep and bear arms? ;-) -- Jim Dixon jdd@dixons.org tel +44 117 982 0786 mobile +44 797 373 7881 http://jxcl.sourceforge.net Java unit test coverage http://xlattice.sourceforge.net p2p communications infrastructure
Jim Dixon (2003-12-19 13:30Z) wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote:
In a nutshell, our Constitution *recognizes* universal human rights. It does not *establish* these rights. If we are going to be faithful to this premise, physical location is a non-sequitor.
This is a valid and probably commendable political position. I do not believe, however, that it reflects current practice in the USA or elsewhere.
If these rights apply to everyone at all times, how does war work? War is clearly a deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process. Which of those three are suffering deprivation depends on the type of war and particular battle plans. -- I am a carnivorous fish swimming in #+# Banking establishments are two waters, the cold water of art and -*+ more dangerous than standing the hot water of science. - S. Dali #-# armies. - Thomas Jefferson
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Justin wrote:
Jim Dixon (2003-12-19 13:30Z) wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote:
In a nutshell, our Constitution *recognizes* universal human rights. It does not *establish* these rights. If we are going to be faithful to this premise, physical location is a non-sequitor.
This is a valid and probably commendable political position. I do not believe, however, that it reflects current practice in the USA or elsewhere.
If these rights apply to everyone at all times, how does war work? War is clearly a deprivation of life, liberty, or property without due process. Which of those three are suffering deprivation depends on the type of war and particular battle plans.
Precisely. Under this viewpoint, [initiation of] war does *not* work. We have zero moral authority to wage war under the system we pretend to operate under. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm
On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Jim Dixon wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote:
Why does the US military have to treat them as though they had US constitutional rights? They are not citizens or physically present in the United States.
In a nutshell, our Constitution *recognizes* universal human rights. It does not *establish* these rights. If we are going to be faithful to this premise, physical location is a non-sequitor.
This is a valid and probably commendable political position. I do not believe, however, that it reflects current practice in the USA or elsewhere.
I say "probably" because it seems likely that adopting this as a practice would have very high costs. How far would you have this go? Is the US government to be obligated to ensure these rights to everyone everywhere? Does this mean liberating slaves in China and Saudi Arabia, for example? Opening up Russian jails? Forcing countries everywhere to grant the vote to women, to educate children?
Hmmm. Does the application of this principle mean that the US government is going to require the British government to recognize the right to keep and bear arms? ;-)
The application of the principal domestically does not inherently oblige us to force the acceptance of our views on others. Rather, it provides a framework where others who share this view can come here. If we are "correct" in our worldview, we will pick up allies. If we are not, we will die. Unfortunately, the US does not even *pretend* to follow it's own ethics, so the whole subject is pure theory on a national level :-( -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm
Right, the Declaration of Independance starts off with "We hold these truths to be self evident..." and lists that some rights are inalienable, and granted to us just because we are human, so therefore they apply to all humans everywhere... Well, in practice between what was done to Native Americans, and African Americans didn't exactly reflect that... but they got away with it by changing the definition of what's a human being... Just like now they're getting away with removing all of one's rights by defining them as a "terrorist" or "illegal combattant" instead of as a human being, etc. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :25Kliters anthrax, 38K liters botulinum toxin, 500 tons of /|\ \|/ :sarin, mustard and VX gas, mobile bio-weapons labs, nukular /\|/\ <--*-->:weapons.. Reasons for war on Iraq - GWB 2003-01-28 speech. \/|\/ /|\ :Found to date: 0. Cost of war: $800,000,000,000 USD. \|/ + v + : The look on Sadam's face - priceless! --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, J.A. Terranson wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Jim Dixon wrote:
<SNIP>
Why does the US military have to treat them as though they had US constitutional rights? They are not citizens or physically present in the United States.
In a nutshell, our Constitution *recognizes* universal human rights. It does not *establish* these rights. If we are going to be faithful to this premise, physical location is a non-sequitor.
participants (6)
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Freematt357@aol.com
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J.A. Terranson
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Jim Dixon
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Justin
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Michael Kalus
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Sunder