I've watched this list with bemusement as several of you have cheered on the G8 "Anti-Globalist" black-shirted twentysomethings. Watching the street riots in Genoa on CNN, watching the supermarkets and gas stations being torched and vandalized, all I can think is this: WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY? Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire? Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed. Not like our Korean and white merchants in L.A., who used shotguns and AR-15s to kill the blacks and Mexicans who tried to burn down their stores. The property-destroying "anarchists" are giving anarchy a bad name. Seems to me that killing several dozen of them would send a good message. --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 09:58:10AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed. Not like our Korean and white merchants in L.A., who used shotguns and AR-15s to kill the blacks and Mexicans who tried to burn down their stores.
Worse yet, apparently the shopkeepers of Genoa were strongly encouraged by the government to head out of town. Then the barricades went up around the "red zone" and shops and businesses not inside it seem to be receiving minimal, if any, police protection. In other words, the Europeans are disarmed, pressured to leave town, and then they can watch CNN with us as their shops are looted and smashed and the cops hunker down inside the red zone. -Declan
Tim May wrote:
WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY?
Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire?
Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed.
Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. I'm sure the store and gas station owners would take a VERY dim view of having their livelihoods sacrificed to these so-called "anarchists." S a n d y
At 11:01 AM -0700 7/20/01, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Tim May wrote:
WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY?
Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire?
Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed.
Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. I'm sure the store and gas station owners would take a VERY dim view of having their livelihoods sacrificed to these so-called "anarchists."
True enough, though this in some sense is a quibble. I mean "nearly all Europeans." There are a few pockets where gun ownership is still permitted, but the trend in most of Europe is to disarmament of the citizen-units. (And as Declan pointed out in his message, the cops do what cops usually do: they pulled back, abandoned the citizen-units to the mobs, and munched on the Italian version of doughnuts (biscotti?). And even in Switzerland, my understanding is that the rifles issued to each male head of household (maybe single moms, but I doubt it) are kept IN THE HOUSES, not in shops and businesses and factories. Some of them might have carried their rifles to their businesses, though. (This is what the Korean merchants mostly did. They camped out in their stores all night and shot from rooftops as looters and arsonists approached. Interestingly, though t.v. cameras captured footage of rioters being shot by Koreans, even killed, there were no attempted prosecutions of these Koreans. Realpolitik meant the dead rioters were just part of the "57 killed in the L.A. riots." Which is as it should be.) I assume this will be the last such Public G8 Extravaganza held in a major city. Between Seattle, Gothenburg, and now Genoa, the costs are too high. The taxpayers of Genoa and Italy are stuck with a $110 million security bill, according to CNN. Probably higher. And the city has been shut down by the preparations. Probably not even much restaurant business, certainly nothing to compensate the actual taxpayers. Having these meetings in "securable" locations, like Davos, makes a lot more sense. "Twenty thousand blackshirt "Warriors Against Capitalism" caught in blizzard on march up to Davos...thousands feared frozen!" Of course, there is really no need for these kinds of meetings. Putin is there to beg for more handouts from the G7, the Gay Lobby is simpering about committing a billion dollars to AIDS research and needle exchange programs, and the corporate interests are seeking ways to reduce competition by upstart companies. The more things change.... --Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns
Tim May wrote:
And even in Switzerland, my understanding is that the rifles issued to each male head of household (maybe single moms, but I doubt it) are kept IN THE HOUSES, not in shops and businesses and factories. Some of them might have carried their rifles to their businesses, though.
Fortunately for the Swiss, Tim has it pretty much wrong. Switzerland and pretty much universal mandatory military service for males. The mandatory part is offensive, but the result is that military personnel are usually issued submachine guns which they keep--along with ammo and the rest of their gear--in their home so that they can be called up quickly if necessary. In addition, the Swiss have a high level of ownership of personal weapons. Kids regularly take their .22 rifles to school for approved shooting activities and business owners are often armed to the teeth. (Ask Duncan about an eye-opening visit to the back room of a Swiss restaurant. Have you ever hear of a bank robbery in Switzerland? In most Swiss banks, tellers are armed. They consider it their duty to chase down any bank robbers that make it out of the bank alive. Don't fuck with the Swiss. S a n d y
where did you here that they had SMG's I was told they had Sig 551's (an
assault rifle)
alpha
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandy Sandfort"
Tim May wrote:
And even in Switzerland, my understanding is that the rifles issued to each male head of household (maybe single moms, but I doubt it) are kept IN THE HOUSES, not in shops and businesses and factories. Some of them might have carried their rifles to their businesses, though.
Fortunately for the Swiss, Tim has it pretty much wrong. Switzerland and pretty much universal mandatory military service for males. The mandatory part is offensive, but the result is that military personnel are usually issued submachine guns which they keep--along with ammo and the rest of their gear--in their home so that they can be called up quickly if necessary.
In addition, the Swiss have a high level of ownership of personal weapons. Kids regularly take their .22 rifles to school for approved shooting activities and business owners are often armed to the teeth. (Ask Duncan about an eye-opening visit to the back room of a Swiss restaurant.
Have you ever hear of a bank robbery in Switzerland? In most Swiss banks, tellers are armed. They consider it their duty to chase down any bank robbers that make it out of the bank alive. Don't fuck with the Swiss.
S a n d y
Let me make some minor (nitpicking) corrections.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandy Sandfort"
Tim May wrote:
And even in Switzerland, my understanding is that the rifles issued to each male head of household (maybe single moms, but I doubt it) are kept IN THE HOUSES, not in shops and businesses and factories. Some of them might have carried their rifles to their businesses, though.
Fortunately for the Swiss, Tim has it pretty much wrong. Switzerland and pretty much universal mandatory military service for males. The mandatory part is offensive, but the result is that military personnel are usually issued submachine guns which they keep--along with ammo and the rest of their gear--in their home so that they can be called up quickly if necessary.
Mandatory is a flexible word in this case. It's pretty easy to avoid service if you really want to and are willing to pay a waiver fee or to substitute service. (The fee is returned if you make up the service). The latter is more difficult, but not impossible. There are provisions also for the exemption of 'conscience objectors.' One will have better luck in the French Cantons than the German on this point. Every reservist or regular must compete in compulsory shooting exercises yearly. It's not much of a chore. Over 200,000 citizens voluntarily compete in the national 300m long rifle contest each year. Women compose about 30% of the participants in recent years. Personally, I think mandatory service, when the requirements are as light as they are in Switzerland, is a good thing (tm). It's actually not "military personnel" but more like every household that is required to maintain firearms. It is true that each reservist or regular in the army is issued a service rifle and two boxes of nicely sealed ammunition. Most cantons, however- and particularly the German side- require every household to maintain a fully serviceable weapon and other supplies. Some cantons will even perform spot inspections and assess fines if the weapons are not in proper order and ammunition not properly stored in the right amount. The mobilization goal of Switzerland is to have their autonomous civil defense zones up and ready to fight in 48 hours or less. Most cantons and sub zones are tuned to mobilize in an afternoon. Places like Zurich and Geneva might have more extensive preparations and hence long mobilization times. The Swiss standard issue rifle is the outstanding Sig SG 550, but the Swiss call the service rifle the Stgw90 (Sturmgewehr 90). They also call the ammunition the GeweherPatronen 90. GP90. It's a 5.6mm round (to distance themselves from NATO) but entirely interchangeable with SS109 ammo. All the Sig 550's will take NATO 5.56 ammo without a hiccup. They even have 1 in 7 twists and will deal with heavy or light NATO ammo well. All service rifles for the military are manufactured exclusively at the Sig factory in Schaffhausen. Having visited there I can attest that I'd be happy to eat off the floor and ask for seconds. Substituting the SG 550 for the SG 552 Commando Carbine is an option.
In addition, the Swiss have a high level of ownership of personal weapons. Kids regularly take their .22 rifles to school for approved shooting activities and business owners are often armed to the teeth. (Ask Duncan about an eye-opening visit to the back room of a Swiss restaurant.
Outside of military service firearms are easy to come by and concealed carry permits equally easy (with exceptions in some cantons like Vaud). In most cantons a Swiss citizen is automatically considered a "collector" after his or her fifth weapon purchase. The application for a license was becoming such a rubber stamp process by 1996 that a proposal was made to pre-print application forms with "for collection purposes" under the reason for requesting a license. (That being the politically correct reason to request a firearm at the time). The police were not amused so you actually have to write that down now. I've never experienced a permit application that took longer than 30 days to approve, incidentally. Fully automatic weapons are obtainable if you are a collector. (i.e. have purchased 5 other weapons). There is no restriction, other than common sense, on the purchase of ammo. Individuals can freely import 500 rounds of ammo per instance, if they don't want to buy Swiss. I'm not sure why anyone would prefer not to buy Swiss ammo.
Have you ever hear of a bank robbery in Switzerland? In most Swiss banks, tellers are armed. They consider it their duty to chase down any bank robbers that make it out of the bank alive. Don't fuck with the Swiss.
Not only that but the Swiss assign specific officers to bank duty on a given shift. They are generally armed with fully automatic weapons and have a poor sense of humor when on duty. I can relate from personal experience the plight of a French youth who attempted to rob a bank in Zurich. He held up the teller (a charming young woman) with a .22 pistol and demanded 100,000 CHF. The teller calmly reached into the bank drawer, placed a stack of bills on the counter. While the French youth gawked at the bills the teller calmly drew a 9mm pistol and deposited two rounds in the youth's collarbone and shoulder. The youth fell to the ground, dropped his pistol, recovered briefly, picked up the gun again (probably a fatal mistake) and fled the bank. Unfortunately for the youth the bank manager (wearing what must have been a $3500 suit) drew his own concealed handgun and gave chase. Outside of the bank the youth turned around on the street on hearing the shout of the manager, raised his weapon and was promptly dispatched by the bank manager with a chest-head double tap. Police arrived on the scene, (in about 30 seconds as a bank duty officer was across the street) took the report of the bank manager, asked for (and were refused) a copy of the bank surveillance tape (which was later provided to the head administrative officer reviewing the case) and left. The entire incident was cleared up and forgotten in 3 hours. The bank continued to transact business throughout the entire affair. Messing with a Swiss bank is like messing with a lion's dinner. Speaking of G8 nonsense- I suspect that if held in Switzerland most of the merchants and land owners would be asked to leave because the authorities would not want a bunch of dead foreigners. I can assure you that no shop owners would have been "spraying looters with automatic weapon fire." Instead they would have been surgically dispatching each and every participant with center mass three-round-bursts. While killing several dozen might send a good message, killing every single one of them with Swiss (read military) like precision would be bad press for a low-profile country. The Swiss are very stern- if politely so- if you break the rules. If you break them violently they are just as politely lethal and simply will not let you interefere with the conduct of business.
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Fortunately for the Swiss, Tim has it pretty much wrong. Switzerland and pretty much universal mandatory military service for males. The mandatory part is offensive,
Just another example of why the C-A-C-L contingent doesn't have a clue, no concept of 'citizen' and 'responsibility' (outside of personal wealth). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Tim May wrote:
WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY?
Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire?
Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed.
Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. I'm sure the store and gas station owners would take a VERY dim view of having their livelihoods sacrificed to these so-called "anarchists."
Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own). -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 4:56 PM -0500 7/20/01, Jim Choate wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Tim May wrote:
WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY?
Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire?
Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed.
Not entirely true. If the G8 folks really wanted to avoid "collateral damage" they'd hold their meetings in Switzerland or maybe Finland. I'm sure the store and gas station owners would take a VERY dim view of having their livelihoods sacrificed to these so-called "anarchists."
Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own).
Most of those protesters are white Europeans. The only thing they are protesting is their own lack of understanding.
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Petro wrote:
Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own).
Most of those protesters are white Europeans. The only thing they are protesting is their own lack of understanding.
Perhaps, this is a clear demonstration of your own lack however. It's interesting (and something I've commented on before, check the archives :) that the 'leaders' of the C-A-C-L viewpoint are always ready to bitch about how 'terrible' the government is and how it degrades their profits. And then when somebody actually gets up and acts on it they're the first ones to bail. The real reason they're not sensitive to these particular 'anarchist' is that they aren't motivated by the alure of money. They aspire to a higher calling than crass commercialism or puritanical ego fulfillment. I've said it before, I'll say it again. The majority of the C-A-C-L contingent, in particular their 'leaders', are a bunch of money hungry hypocrites. God $ Fascism. Just more of the same. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
At 04:56 PM 7/20/01 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
Just as much as these protesters object to having their cultures and planet raped and pillaged for the God $ Fascist good (and not their own).
Presumably "their cultures" and "their planet" are the "property" they are defending according to your prior post. I thought they didn't really believe in property? In any case, culture is something that exists in the minds of people and in the choices those people make every day. One can only claim to "own" a culture if one claims to own the minds and choices of others. A bit totalitarian and impossible for commie thugs to do these days since even governments with nukes are having trouble controlling the minds and choices of others. As for the planet, a bit big to be owned at this point though people will be able to own them later when we're richer and have access to more of them. Though why one would want to own a gravity well is beyond me. DCF --- Statism, gravity, and death -- Mankind's three greatest enemies.
One of the points that Tim is missing is that these demonstraters are only protecting their property, in their view. As usual, Tim confuses 'God $ Fascist' with 'Anarchist'. On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote:
I've watched this list with bemusement as several of you have cheered on the G8 "Anti-Globalist" black-shirted twentysomethings.
Watching the street riots in Genoa on CNN, watching the supermarkets and gas stations being torched and vandalized, all I can think is this:
WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY?
Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire?
Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed. Not like our Korean and white merchants in L.A., who used shotguns and AR-15s to kill the blacks and Mexicans who tried to burn down their stores.
The property-destroying "anarchists" are giving anarchy a bad name. Seems to me that killing several dozen of them would send a good message.
-- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 20 Jul 2001, Tim May wrote:
WHY AREN'T THE OWNERS OF THESE PROPERTIES DEFENDING THEIR PROPERTY?
Why are't shop owners spraying the looters with automatic weapons fire?
Because, of course, Europeans are disarmed.
Not all of us. In fact, if you look at the statistics, e.g. we Finnish people are actually quite *well* armed. Just not with handguns, but hunting rifles. If something like that were to happen here, there would be no shortage of firepower. However, over here the fact that they are torching your property isn't an excuse to shoot -- if you manage to kill one, it's murder, and probably not even in mitigating circumstances. The same applies doublefold to defending yourself against police brutality and co. People usually don't think about using firearms to defend themselves, even if they happen to own some. They know they'll get nailed for it, no matter how righteous the shooting might seem to be. Dunno... Seeing what went down in Gothenburg, and the shit that's going on now in Genoa, I too am beginning to think there is something very wrong with all this...
The property-destroying "anarchists" are giving anarchy a bad name.
Agreed. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy@iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
Dunno... Seeing what went down in Gothenburg, and the shit that's going on now in Genoa, I too am beginning to think there is something very wrong with all this...
Duh. What was your first clue?
The property-destroying "anarchists" are giving anarchy a bad name.
Agreed.
Actually its a clear demonstration of the paucity of 'anarchist' solutions to social situations and how ill fit it is to human psychology. Some never learn, they keep hoping for angels among men. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (10)
-
Black Unicorn -
Brent -
Declan McCullagh -
Duncan Frissell -
Jim Choate -
Jim Choate -
Petro -
Sampo Syreeni -
Sandy Sandfort -
Tim May