[I already sent this to Stanton McCandlish in private e-mail, but I thought it might be of interest to Cypherpunks in general. In it I correct some stupid statements I made in an earlier post. -Liam] ------------- Begin forwarded message -------------- In <9305041614.AA08798@hydra.unm.edu>, you write:

No, the "right" is in your right to actually leave work, and go get something to eat. If you employer demanded a $15 dock in pay to take lunch, or refused to let you have your break (and in most states I believe there are labor laws that mandate that employees get a certain length-of-time break for every x amount of work) that would be a violation of your right to have lunch.

For the sake of argument <wink>, Stanton, I wouldn't say a "right to lunch," even as posed this way, should stand. If it's a statutory right, then -- well, then it is just that. But I regard this is coincidence and would hesitate to call it a "natural right," since I should be free to negotiate an employment contract which pays me less ("docks" me, if you wish) if I take time off for lunch, and more (a "bonus?") if I stay on all day. Note that at present I am _not_ free to do so, so that right is being infringed upon, just as our privacy is frequently infringed upon at present.

Like- wise if someone put a gun to your head and said "thou shalt eat no lunch".

Right! This seems to be the main parallel to privacy here. I do agree on that. I accept your objection to my positioning of rights as commodities. Disregarding the fact that I still believe rights are fairly meaningless (they only work if someone recognizes the same rights as you do, so that's all subjective), I do realize what people mean when they talk about rights, and that to talk of them as commodities therefore probably _is_ confusing the issue. What I meant to emphasize (and failed to mention) was that it is still quite possible and natural to defend one's privacy, whether one believes privacy is a "right" under the law or not. Too often, I've seen people use their violated rights as a justification for pointless, indignant whining. I want to advocate a more aggressive, guerrilla-style defense of privacy; to me, it is enough that I _want_ privacy. While rights are inherent, and, agreed, are _not_ commodities, the preservation and enforcement of all rights _costs_ something, and doesn't always involve opponents who are willing to believe that what you are defending is a right. I think we're fundamentally in agreement. I think I was right to have second thoughts over whether my argument over rights was appropriate for the list--probably it was not. But nonetheless, I'm glad we're discussing it. Happy Cypherpunking! Liam PS: I admired your courage in offering and advertising PGP on your BBS, and thought you handled the threat from Jim Bidzos gracefully. Let's hope PGP can become legal soon. Really, I'd like to see a PGP that is legal for both personal _and commerical_ use, internationally, even if it costs money--perhaps especially if it costs money. The reason I tried to establish rights as commodities, Stanton, is that I've read too many Ayn Rand novels :) and believe that trading something in money is a symbol of its value, and of the value of whoever created it, and should be a big ego boost to creative people and to all involved. I really don't like anything free, even something sold in a large bundle. Ever eat too much at an all-you-can-eat restaurant? I think that, in part, life is too much like an all-you-can-eat restaurant. Paying for something for its own merits causes us to get our priorities straight. I like to see people get filthy rich [why filthy?] _selling_ software; the feeling I get when I buy something is similar to the feeling some people get when they give money to charities, I suppose. Everything worth doing is worth doing at a profit. Ever get warm fuzzies when you send something UPS instead of US Parcel Post? :-) In some cases, the profit may not be monetary. But it's profit nonetheless, and that can only be good. --- Public key available by arrangement -- The cat is out of the bag. Too much of a dreamer not to be practical -- Go have your own "valiant defeat." Liam David Gray <lg2g+@andrew.cmu.edu> -- Quote me.