Re: The Enemies List
Chefren - On behalf of the civilized readers of the cypherpunks list, please accept our apology for the implied threats of violence against you by Tim May. He is by no means representative of the larger readership. He is alone in calling for the death of those who hold views different from his own. You and other critics have every right to speak your mind and make your position known. Indeed, the cypherpunks were founded on the principle of advancing freedom of speech. It is a sad and tragic irony that one of the founders of that group has descended into a despicable allegiance to violence. Long-term subscribers have seen it happen gradually over the years. It seemed to many that the Y2K non-disaster was the last straw. Tim May was one of the worst of the Y2K paranoids, spewing hostility at anyone who dared to suggest that the event might not be a catastrophe, that the government was not engaging in a cover-up or planning to install itself as a dictatorship. The original purpose of the cypherpunks mailing list was forgotten as Tim May turned it into a forum for discussing gun ownership, preparations for disaster, and mechanisms for revenge. Many of us have been forced to use the shield of anonymity so that our voices may be heard without fear of the violent retribution that Tim May so often threatens. His frequent boasts of carrying weapons, his talk of a large arsenal, his calls for bloody revenge, all instill a genuine fear in those who would disagree with him. Very few list members have ever dared to speak up in opposition to even the most outrageous statements made by Tim May. When he said that he was becoming convinced that Tim McVeigh had done the right thing in killing hundreds of innocents, only an anonymous poster was willing to take him sharply to task. When he wrote that what he calls "the colored race" was heading for "the trash heap of history", adding "fuck 'em", only an anonymous poster spoke out against this outrageous demonstration of racism. Why? Is it because all list subscribers agree with terrorist actions like McVeigh's? (Tim May has even hinted that he welcomes the recent WTC attack!) Is it because all list subscribers are racists who wish to see their own race rise to dominance? Surely not. Rather, most readers are intimidated into silence. They don't speak up because they fear the consequences. Tim May has shown all too many times how sensitive he is to even the slightest criticism. He has a furious temper, as you, Chefren, have discovered. And he does not hesitate to threaten death. So please, don't imagine that because Tim May has added you to his enemies list, you are in any danger from the thousands of cypherpunks who subscribe to the mailing list. The vast majority abhor intimidation and threats. Indeed, most readers came to the cypherpunks out of a desire to build a society where speech would always be free, where violence would be impotent. This is why we have worked on the technologies of cryptography and anonymity. It is sad and ironic that we are forced to resort to these methods, which were intended as a shield against a hostile outside world, here on our own list. It is the only way that many of us can speak openly and freely and without fear. This is the injury which Tim May has inflicted upon the group. Fortunately the tools are available, and even his violent threats, his rants and his rage cannot silence those who would speak their minds. Again, on behalf of those of us who do not believe in violent revenge, who believe in freedom of speech for all, please accept this apology.
Nomen Nescio wrote a lot of nonsense. Rather than respond to each pointless point, let me just say this: First, don't presume to speak for me or any member of this list. This is a list of individuals and they all speak only for themselves. Second, more people have died in Ted Kennedy's car than at Tim May's hands. Please stop the cutsy, "oh, I'm so scared, that Tim will go postal," bull shit. Third, this list was founded on the principle that technology could/should/would be used to protect privacy. Period. Fourth, even that were not the case, Tim has stopped NO ONE from expressing their opinions on this list. He's only expressed his opinion of their opinions. His threats--to the extent that term even applies--speak only to those who are guilty of illegal actions against our rights. S a n d y
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
Nomen Nescio wrote a lot of nonsense. Rather than respond to each pointless point, let me just say this:
First, don't presume to speak for me or any member of this list. This is a list of individuals and they all speak only for themselves.
Follow your own advice...
Third, this list was founded on the principle that technology could/should/would be used to protect privacy. Period.
No, that was 'that' list. That list died and a new distributed list was born. The current operators may or may not be doing this for the same reasons that the original list was put up. In any case you don't operate a node so you have no expectation to understand why THOSE people do it. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote:
You and other critics have every right to speak your mind and make your position known. Indeed, the cypherpunks were founded on the principle of advancing freedom of speech. It is a sad and tragic irony that one of the founders of that group has descended into a despicable allegiance to violence. Long-term subscribers have seen it happen gradually over the years.
Descended hell, he's always been that way. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On 14 Sep 2001, at 15:18, Jim Choate wrote:
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote:
You and other critics have every right to speak your mind and make your position known. Indeed, the cypherpunks were founded on the principle of advancing freedom of speech. It is a sad and tragic irony that one of the founders of that group has descended into a despicable allegiance to violence. Long-term subscribers have seen it happen gradually over the years.
Descended hell, he's always been that way.
Well well well, long time ago that I was on the Cypherpunk list. Nothing changed there it seems! Although there were and probably are quite some interesting writers on the list I think I won't subscribe again. Problem is I'm against "absolute" anonymity, I think working on it is technically interesting but the result is nothing less than a-social and I'm not at all against democratic societies. It's easy to say so for me since I live in a pretty free country (The Netherlands) but as a whole when there is no war, we don't need anonymity as far as I see it. You can always find a journalist or someone else to tell your story to the world if you have serious problems. No information should be distributed without someone responsible for it! Anonymity like we have on the net now makes me think of the middle ages, when the cities started to come up. When you weren't a citizen you might not enter with weapons those day's. "Leave them at the entrance." Often it was even necessary to leave the city before the night... After some time (centuries) they came up with the "horrible idea" to give people identities that could be verified. They later evolved to "passports". So people from one city could operate in other cities and even countries, as long as your country more or less guaranteed your identity. What we need as soon as possible is "Digital Identity" (DI), not from commercial companies like banks, yuck(!), no our governments should add a chip to our passports. Without that chip no serious communication. Of course that wouldn't be such a very good idea for privacy, so DI without further provisions wouldn't be such a good idea. The solution is that your DI should entitle to as much virtual identities as you would like to have. Government (or a third party setup by the three main parties of the Trias Politica) should only reveal your real/absolute identity if a judge has judged so according to democratically agreed laws. +++chefren (Yes, that's my real forename exclusive enough I think, and if the absolute e-mail address works, who needs to know more?)
-- On 17 Sep 2001, at 0:03, chefren wrote:
Problem is I'm against "absolute" anonymity, I think working on it is technically interesting but the result is nothing less than a-social and I'm not at all against democratic societies. It's easy to say so for me since I live in a pretty free country (The Netherlands) but as a whole when there is no war, we don't need anonymity as far as I see it.
The reason your country is pretty free is that when your mother was sucking off German soldiers, US soldiers came and gave you your freedom. I guess it was not worth the effort.
Anonymity like we have on the net now makes me think of the middle ages, when the cities started to come up. When you weren't a citizen you might not enter with weapons those day's. "Leave them at the entrance." Often it was even necessary to leave the city before the night... After some time (centuries) they came up with the "horrible idea" to give people identities that could be verified. They later evolved to "passports". So people from one city could operate in other cities and even countries, as long as your country more or less guaranteed your identity.
Passports were not required for travel in most places until the early twentieth century. Things really shut down when the germans started infiltrating troops, and have not opened up since. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 6Ccv99xSTQ49aSVy10p8b+XMoA6gBIWtQUg+prTQ 4BSH1Vq6WUKYYIjUjTanlsN5sLnfpJDyiEjgfl3Dl
-- On 14 Sep 2001, at 18:40, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Chefren - On behalf of the civilized readers of the cypherpunks list, please accept our apology for the implied threats of violence against you by Tim May. He is by no means representative of the larger readership. He is alone in calling for the death of those who hold views different from his own.
I, like Tim May, call for the death of those who violate our rights, who attempt to destroy our liberty, those within America, and those outside it. So would almost all of us, if it were not that you damn cops would use fragments of our words out of context. If there is no chorus endorsing Tim, it is because of well founded fear that it is dangerous in America to speak certain views. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG veNSQjWYzoKVNISF/OXzydTRWY3X1gGR/r58YurD 4hfe55dWwhfn+EXNxGQ2h9tfM1DIyeKxiIcue7Gpn
participants (5)
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chefren -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
Jim Choate -
Nomen Nescio -
Sandy Sandfort