-- This small step forward is ultimately a result of https. The more advanced technologies that have been a focus of discussion of this list have yet to have real effect, but I see the infrastructure that would create demand for such technologies coming into being. On 5 Jan 2004 at 11:57, sales@cheapscrips.com wrote:
We are an overseas pharmacy that is presently accepting e-gold as our exclusive means of payment. Our prices are substantially lower than ridiculously-high U.S. prices. In addition:
*We currently feature 125 drugs on our site and have access to several thousand more. *We do not require a prescription of any kind. *Our shipping is just $7 to anywhere in North or South America; $9 elsewhere.
Our homepage is located at www.cheapscrips.com
Come check us out!
by the way, many of their drugs are radically cheaper. Assuming they are legitimate, they would be getting it from some country that does not pay too much attention to patents, registered trademarks, and the like. Regulatory arbitrage, and a privately issued currency. It is well short of the high expectations we held years ago, but it is progress nonetheless. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 6CxZlFVsvfCscLNvWTSJpnFyTKmr81PGhoMjo4Lq 47V6MDRLrS73Hik5meE9gm9iEi39WNmrDWIklUe6q
This is a welcome step, assuming the pharms are legit. We still need some form of reputation service. But I'm not overly optimistic (I tend not to be, in the short run). I do not know how resistant the e-gold corporate and technical infrastructure is to U.S. federal government targeting. If the Feds decided e-gold needed to be shut down and took very aggressive steps, what would happen? -Declan On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 12:00:24PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
-- This small step forward is ultimately a result of https.
The more advanced technologies that have been a focus of discussion of this list have yet to have real effect, but I see the infrastructure that would create demand for such technologies coming into being.
On 5 Jan 2004 at 11:57, sales@cheapscrips.com wrote:
We are an overseas pharmacy that is presently accepting e-gold as our exclusive means of payment. Our prices are substantially lower than ridiculously-high U.S. prices. In addition:
*We currently feature 125 drugs on our site and have access to several thousand more. *We do not require a prescription of any kind. *Our shipping is just $7 to anywhere in North or South America; $9 elsewhere.
Our homepage is located at www.cheapscrips.com
Come check us out!
At 01:33 PM 1/5/2004, Declan McCullagh wrote:
This is a welcome step, assuming the pharms are legit. We still need some form of reputation service.
But I'm not overly optimistic (I tend not to be, in the short run). I do not know how resistant the e-gold corporate and technical infrastructure is to U.S. federal government targeting. If the Feds decided e-gold needed to be shut down and took very aggressive steps, what would happen?
Initially there would likely be a surge in use by their competitors, like Pecunix, that operate entirely outside the US. Later new entrants would probably spring up. steve
At 04:53 PM 1/5/2004, Steve Schear wrote:
Initially there would likely be a surge in use by their competitors, like Pecunix, that operate entirely outside the US. Later new entrants would probably spring up.
Undoubtably, over a period of years, you're right. But then you have the next wave of attacks by the U.S. regulatory apparatus (again, assuming sufficient determination). The U.S. could pressure the Panama government to close Pecunix or apply direct or indirect sanctions and incentives. The U.S. could make it more difficult for U.S. residents to transfer money into a Pecunix account, perhaps through direct criminal sanctions or regulatory discouragement. The U.S. could mount a propaganda campaign against trusting Pecunix and similar operators, and so on. The last point might even be a valid one. Without external validation or sufficient reputation, who will trust the operators of an offshore bank not to flee with the money once they're received enough cash to make the value of the gold outweigh the possibility of prison time? I see Pecunix has a gold certificate (http://pecunix.info/gold_bars.htm) posted but I do not know anything about the Anglo Far-East Bullion Company, whether they are trustworthy or in cahoots, or what contract governs Pecunix executives' access to the gold apparently in the valut. I have no reason to doubt Pecunix's honesty and they seem to have taken some measures to respond to the obvious criticisms. I suppose my point is that I'm optimistic in the long term but pessimistic about such services becoming widely opted in the short term because of the reaction by the U.S., the OECD's FATF, and so on. In this specific case of physical drug shipments, there's always interdiction at the physical border too. -Declan
At 02:29 PM 1/5/2004, you wrote:
At 04:53 PM 1/5/2004, Steve Schear wrote:
Initially there would likely be a surge in use by their competitors, like Pecunix, that operate entirely outside the US. Later new entrants would probably spring up.
Undoubtably, over a period of years, you're right.
But then you have the next wave of attacks by the U.S. regulatory apparatus (again, assuming sufficient determination). The U.S. could pressure the Panama government to close Pecunix or apply direct or indirect sanctions and incentives. The U.S. could make it more difficult for U.S. residents to transfer money into a Pecunix account, perhaps through direct criminal sanctions or regulatory discouragement. The U.S. could mount a propaganda campaign against trusting Pecunix and similar operators, and so on.
These types of attacks mainly throttle the masses from their easy use. Its not clear to me that they were ever intended to serve this market so these efforts may not bear much fruit for regulators.
The last point might even be a valid one. Without external validation or sufficient reputation, who will trust the operators of an offshore bank not to flee with the money once they're received enough cash to make the value of the gold outweigh the possibility of prison time? I see Pecunix has a gold certificate (http://pecunix.info/gold_bars.htm) posted but I do not know anything about the Anglo Far-East Bullion Company, whether they are trustworthy or in cahoots, or what contract governs Pecunix executives' access to the gold apparently in the valut.
I'd like to see more open auditing too. I'd also like to see the equivalent of DGC trading fait money.
I have no reason to doubt Pecunix's honesty and they seem to have taken some measures to respond to the obvious criticisms. I suppose my point is that I'm optimistic in the long term but pessimistic about such services becoming widely opted in the short term because of the reaction by the U.S., the OECD's FATF, and so on. In this specific case of physical drug shipments, there's always interdiction at the physical border too.
Unless someone launches a killer app that only take e-gold or one of the other DGCs I doubt they will become mainstream, but them again Private Banking has never been mainstream either. As long as these systems don't get on the radar of the regulators they should do OK, even well, as small businesses. steve
-- Declan McCullagh:
But then you have the next wave of attacks by the U.S. regulatory apparatus (again, assuming sufficient determination). The U.S. could pressure the Panama government to close Pecunix or apply direct or indirect sanctions and incentives. The U.S. could make it more difficult for U.S. residents to transfer money into a Pecunix account, perhaps through direct criminal sanctions or regulatory discouragement. The U.S. could mount a propaganda campaign against trusting Pecunix and similar operators, and so on.
Yes, but all this is more complicated, more difficult to do, and easier to evade, than sending in goons to a certain shop to beat the owner insensible and seize his inventory. A ruler who is competent and violent can accomplish all sorts of things. As Napoleon said, you can do anything with bayonets except sit on them, but in fact you cannot do anything with bayonets. It is hard to do complicated things. Leviathan is necessarily far less intelligent than the individuals that compose it. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG l4fPcdUpIZed1a9UOLVkoXAVUyNfIpAwdU1iD1c/ 43VuVeZv4rjEnepkdOsSb+yERponsE9yYH6rr1Dls
-- Declan McCullagh wrote:
If the Feds decided e-gold needed to be shut down and took very aggressive steps, what would happen?
Steve Schear wrote:
Initially there would likely be a surge in use by their competitors, like Pecunix, that operate entirely outside the US. Later new entrants would probably spring up.
Observe that the crackdown on Napster has led to competitors that are less centralized and make vigorous use of encryption. The existence of pecunix may well be what is deterring the treasury from a more vigorous crackdown on e-gold. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 1leXM7i43VBERRp7Fl9yr4XpGR+1aQcgF4Lpb3Z8 4l172AEr/pH2r6bQ+FpdSN0+6tXvL3UHo7fKb3muF
On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 04:32:33PM -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
The existence of pecunix may well be what is deterring the treasury from a more vigorous crackdown on e-gold.
You may be right, and it's an interesting point, though partially inconsistent with the way the Feds have worked to date. Restraint has never been their strong suit. -Declan
-- On 5 Jan 2004 at 15:33, Declan McCullagh wrote:
But I'm not overly optimistic (I tend not to be, in the short run). I do not know how resistant the e-gold corporate and technical infrastructure is to U.S. federal government targeting. If the Feds decided e-gold needed to be shut down and took very aggressive steps, what would happen?
The USG has taken escalating measures against e-gold, and these have certainly had a substantial effect, but e-gold could lose all its US infrastructure without very bad effect. It is also somewhat protected by muslim-jewish tensions. Some Muslim governments might well see aggressive US measures against e-gold operations in their territories as a part of a Jewish plot to trap the world in the coils of compount interest. E-gold transactions are traceable. E-gold does cooperate with the US government, and lots of other governments, but the trace is apt to come to a dead end in gold or cash. It is hard to get a bank account or credit card with an alternate ID, it is easy to get an e-gold account with no ID, like the old style Swiss Bank accounts. E-gold requests true names, but has no enforcement of them or checking of them. This lack of enforcement is arguably illegal, but it continues. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG W7gsWUY+/5KwrRw98KCYNs/xKsHYjnfvmtucfBoT 4o3QAhOGqRq67ZPaLVE64oWF8uS5hEW6quvjPtm6k
participants (3)
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Declan McCullagh -
James A. Donald -
Steve Schear