Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote :
On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
NB : I'm not opposed to drilling Alaskan oil - after Kuwait runs dry...
I am. Find another way other than killing the Polar Bears (they have to helicopter them around the N. pole each year so they don't starve), seals, whales, etc.
Your right to TRY to make money doesn't over-ride my right to a reasonably maintaned planet.
As usual you misunderstand me - I only approve of going into ANWR in a case of dire need. Our society depends so heavily on fossil fuels that a sudden removal would cause panic and starvation.
And as far as $25+/gallon gas...go baby go!
$25 is a bit extreme - lets move it up to ~$3 1 year from now to start. Change it too quickly and you cause too much trouble for the economy. I also think we should learn a lesson from NY - annual vehicle registration costs are based on vehicle weight. Mike
At 04:23 PM 9/24/01 -0700, mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
I also think we should learn a lesson from NY - annual vehicle registration costs are based on vehicle weight.
Mike
That's not fair. It penalizes safer (more massive) cars without regard to their actual petrol consumption. If you only tax cars you ignore driving habits --you subsidize 'wasteful' (but fun) driving, e.g., accelerating faster than fuel-optimal. The market is fair: just let the price of gas be established by a free market. Then everyone can decide whether they want a 1000 lb, 300 hp car or a 3000 lb, 100 hp car, or something in between.
My guess is their thinking is based on damage to road surface rather than on fuel consumption. Damage to road surface varies with some unlikely power of pressure exerted. I can't remember references right now unfortunately. But it works out that cars & vans cause effectively none of the damage, medium-sized goods vehicles cause vast amounts, larger trucks & busses less than you'd think (multiple axles, bigger tyres) and the occasional giant load (construction crane, tunnel sections, tank transporters, whatever) a lot more. Ken David Honig wrote:
At 04:23 PM 9/24/01 -0700, mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
I also think we should learn a lesson from NY - annual vehicle registration costs are based on vehicle weight.
Mike
That's not fair. It penalizes safer (more massive) cars without regard to their actual petrol consumption.
If you only tax cars you ignore driving habits --you subsidize 'wasteful' (but fun) driving, e.g., accelerating faster than fuel-optimal.
The market is fair: just let the price of gas be established by a free market. Then everyone can decide whether they want a 1000 lb, 300 hp car or a 3000 lb, 100 hp car, or something in between.
At 02:23 PM 9/25/01 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
My guess is their thinking is based on damage to road surface rather than on fuel consumption. Damage to road surface varies with some unlikely power of pressure exerted.
Aha. Then charging by weight would be equiv. to charging by tire pressure x area which would be reasonable if the exponent in the road damage function were 1. Thanks.
David Honig wrote:
The market is fair: just let the price of gas be established by a free market. Then everyone can decide whether they want a 1000 lb, 300 hp car or a 3000 lb, 100 hp car, or something in between.
Exactly -- if we get rid of all the gov't subsidies for oil, we find that gas is about $10 @ gallon here and now. And that there is absolutely no need for dependence on foreign oil, since we can easily, and profitably, grow all the fuel we need. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
At 09:48 AM 9/25/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
David Honig wrote:
The market is fair: just let the price of gas be established by a free market. Then everyone can decide whether they want a 1000 lb, 300 hp car or a 3000 lb, 100 hp car, or something in between.
Exactly -- if we get rid of all the gov't subsidies for oil, we find that gas is about $10 @ gallon here and now. And that
What subsidies? They tax the hell out of it (e.g., petrol here in the US, even worse in UK). If you're counting US military involvement overseas, well, we can do without that and pay more (temporarily, until supply increases) for the oil we replace that oil with. If you think the US subsidizes oil companies, you need to look at how much taxes they pay.
Another: U.S. GOVERNMENT WELFARE FOR OIL INDUSTRY $114.6 BILLION ANNUALLY The U.S. federal government provides up to US$ 114.6 billion in subsidies annually to support the extraction, production and use of petroleum, such as research and development and export financing. The federal government also spends up to $1.6 billion=20 yearly on regulatory oversight, pollution cleanup and liability=20 costs connected to the oil industry, the group said. In addition,=20 U.S. Defense Department spending allocated to safeguard the=20 world's petroleum resources totals $55 billion to $96 billion a=20 year, according to the International Centre for Technology=20 Assessment. Tax subsidies don't end at the federal level, as the=20 group said most state income taxes are based on oil firms' lower=20 federal tax bills, which result in companies paying US $123 million=20 to $323 million less in state taxes.=A0 (C) Reuters Limited 1998. The renewable energy and energy conservation industry sectors are concerned that the subsidies distort the free market and make renewables less economically competitive. They are calling for a levelling of the economic playing field. Either the renewable and conservation=20 industries are given the same subsidies. Or, the subsidies are=20 withdrawn from the oil industry. It is time, they say, for honest free enterprise. It will be good for the economy, they say, and it will result in cheap and substantial reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. ******************************************************************** -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
David Honig wrote:
At 09:48 AM 9/25/01 -0500, Harmon Seaver wrote:
David Honig wrote:
The market is fair: just let the price of gas be established by a free market. Then everyone can decide whether they want a 1000 lb, 300 hp car or a 3000 lb, 100 hp car, or something in between.
Exactly -- if we get rid of all the gov't subsidies for oil, we find that gas is about $10 @ gallon here and now. And that
What subsidies? They tax the hell out of it (e.g., petrol here in the US, even worse in UK).
If you're counting US military involvement overseas, well, we can do without that and pay more (temporarily, until supply increases) for the oil we replace that oil with. If you think the US subsidizes oil companies, you need to look at how much taxes they pay.
Take a look at these sites -- I think the evidence is fairly clear that there are a lot of subsidies to big oil. The military is only one, although it's huge. You could easily make a case that all the expenses related to WTC are subsidies for the oil industry. But besides that: http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm also: http://www.monitor.net/monitor/10-9-95/oilsubsidy.html http://www.greenpeace.org/majordomo/index-press-releases/1998/msg00183.html (yeah, you probably won't like that source, but read it anyway) -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 Home 920-233-5820 hseaver@cybershamanix.com http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html
On Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 07:48 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
David Honig wrote:
The market is fair: just let the price of gas be established by a free market. Then everyone can decide whether they want a 1000 lb, 300 hp car or a 3000 lb, 100 hp car, or something in between.
Exactly -- if we get rid of all the gov't subsidies for oil, we find that gas is about $10 @ gallon here and now. And that there is absolutely no need for dependence on foreign oil, since we can easily, and profitably, grow all the fuel we need.
You have this backwards. The world spot market price for light crude is something like $25 a bbl. Refineries receiving no subsidies can produce a gallon of gasoline and sell it profitably for about $0.60. Then taxes are added, and added. In Europe, even more taxes are added to a gallon/liter of gas/petrol. Where are the subsidies you think are being given to those who import oil they buy for $25/bbl and then refine in refineries receiving no subsidies? (I hope you don't say things like "oil depletion allowance." That affects _some_ producers, and should of course be ended as all taxes are rolled way back, but this does not affect the refiner who buys Saudi light sweet, hauls it to refineries in the Caribbean, outside the U.S., and then sells it in the U.S. Or do you think Royal Dutch Shell is being subsidized by the U.S. Government? Gonna be news to them.) As I said, you have it all backwards. --Tim May
On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 mmotyka@lsil.com wrote:
As usual you misunderstand me - I only approve of going into ANWR in a case of dire need. Our society depends so heavily on fossil fuels that a sudden removal would cause panic and starvation.
I don't misunderstand at all. Better we learn to live without it now then ruin the planet and still have the problem. At least my way we'll have some nice green valley's to sit around in while we pine about the glory days of yor...
$25 is a bit extreme - lets move it up to ~$3 1 year from now to start. Change it too quickly and you cause too much trouble for the economy.
I would hope it would raise holy hell with the economy.
I also think we should learn a lesson from NY - annual vehicle registration costs are based on vehicle weight.
You mean they don't? (Tx. has always been as long as I've owned a car) -- ____________________________________________________________________ Kill them all, take their land, and go there for vacation. Rage Against The Machine The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (6)
-
David Honig -
Harmon Seaver -
Jim Choate -
Ken Brown -
mmotyka＠lsil.com -
Tim May