Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
At 12:39 AM 7/22/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
I'm following the Principle of not underestimating the adversary,
Don't go overboard: remember that there is a difference between underestimating your adversary and unrealistically *over*estimating your adversary.
Good point. Channelling Hettinga, crypto is economics.
I (and I suspect you) live in the "high tech" world,
Um, yes :-)
while a large part of academia tends to believe that the USG is around ten years *behind* them (oh, to have such an ego!). In my personal experience, they tend to have roughly a five year lead on what my world considers "bleeding edge". That said, I'm willing to cut them a few more years of slack when doing the necessary threat assessment, but I just do not believe they are 20, or even 10 years ahead. And that is not an
"idle" belief, it's a considered, long formed opinion, based on an awful lot of input data.
Fair 'nuff. You know that 5 year predictions are too conservative, and 20 year predictions too liberal. Ask Orwell. My point is only that they will be killed should they leak their actual capabilities.
Perhaps that grants the Maryland trogdyltes too much, but again, conservatism rules in this game.
Conservatism in the real world, unreasonable paranoia in the academic world (a necessary thing in that context).
My academic experience had nothing to do with networking. I'm just a manic mechanic, okay?
They also get radioisotope power supplies, etc.
This is actually a *very* good point. It would also address the off-shore splice vs power issue nicely. But we are still constrained by backhaul.
Ergo my dark fiber remark, even if naif.
Yes, VA and DC have gluts of glass. In fact, that is one of the most concentrated glut areas.
And most worth observing...
While this cannot be discounted in toto, the tech comes to them from academia (most of the time), so generally, if you are widely read, you'll have a pretty good idea of what's *possible*. You are likely dead-on accurate about the fabs though.
In the *public* lit.
Albeit, "Nortel" (even if Canadian, eh?)
Yup. The Irony Meter is hanging out at the right of the scale again :-)
Bent so many needles, I don't even know my real name...
Undersea taps are hard. No matter how you figure it.
You think subs are just toys?
The actual intel/counterintel guys make shit for money.
What I meant was, Ames and that FBI dude Hansen (sp?), at least the KGB got Ames' wife as part of the package, whereas the FBI CI dude let his wife off as part of the deal he cut. Nice xian that he was, he was into strippers. All under $2e6, all capable of reading their own records. Go figure, eh? See you in Athens, or before :-)
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
My point is only that they will be killed should they leak their actual capabilities.
Well... I am reading a book about intelligence now. Specifically, "Ernst Volkman: Spies - the secret agents who changed the course of history". Amusing book; describes many ways of intelligence fieldwork, most of them pretty lowtech. Eg, using business representatives as business/technology spies (as eg. a skilled steelworker can assess the capacity and capability and current processing of a factory quite at a glance, and he's often let in during contract negotiations), using pretty women to lure officers into honeytraps... or, recruiting young pretty men to seduce the not exactly pretty old maids who so often work as secretaries in important places. You don't need a *LOT* of money to pull smaller-scale tricks of this kind. Also, using "amateurs", private enterpreneurs in the arts of burglaries, safecracking and other relevant areas, instead of "governmental" employees, poses a counterintelligence advantage that these recruits are unknown to the adversary (and to most of your side too, so there's less chance somebody will be caught or changes sides and squeaks on them). There are many ways to get access to even pretty sensitive info. Patience and persistence and plethora of approaches are important here.
Undersea taps are hard. No matter how you figure it.
You think subs are just toys?
"Hard" doesn't imply "impossible". It however hints on the likely success rate.
The actual intel/counterintel guys make shit for money.
Depends on whom. Often the money are the main motivation. Of course, your own country won't pay you as well as the other one, and will try to appeal to your "patriotism" like a bunch of cheapskates - it's better to be a contractor.
What I meant was, Ames and that FBI dude Hansen (sp?), at least the KGB got Ames' wife as part of the package, whereas the FBI CI dude let his wife off as part of the deal he cut. Nice xian that he was, he was into strippers.
All under $2e6, all capable of reading their own records. Go figure, eh?
And many of them disclosed their colleagues when politely asked. But a big truth remains here - SIGINT and COMINT aren't everything, often a drop of HUMINT is the missing secret sauce. Q: What's the difference between a secret service director and a gardener? A: None. Both have their turf full of moles.
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
Undersea taps are hard. No matter how you figure it.
You think subs are just toys?
Yes. Big ass toys for a bunch of boyz without brainz :-) And remember, "Ivy Bells" technology won't work here. That aside, I'm not arguing that it is un-doable, I am arguing that it is so difficult that it must be reserved for only those "special cases" where the risk/cost/benefits can all be balanced out (and where there is some backhaul available). Attempting to do this on a universal scale, just won't, well, *scale*. Not yet. I am looking eagerly towards entangled photons though, just to be sure we never reach the point of scalability ;-)
The actual intel/counterintel guys make shit for money.
What I meant was, Ames and that FBI dude Hansen (sp?), at least the KGB got Ames' wife as part of the package, whereas the FBI CI dude let his wife off as part of the deal he cut. Nice xian that he was, he was into strippers.
Aren't we *all* into strippers? -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org 0xBD4A95BF "...justice is a duty towards those whom you love and those whom you do not. And people's rights will not be harmed if the opponent speaks out about them." Osama Bin Laden - - - "There aught to be limits to freedom!" George Bush - - - Which one scares you more?
-- On 23 Jul 2004 at 12:40, Thomas Shaddack wrote:
Depends on whom. Often the money are the main motivation. Of course, your own country won't pay you as well as the other one, and will try to appeal to your "patriotism" like a bunch of cheapskates - it's better to be a contractor.
The Soviet Union was notorious for absurdly low pay, yet had no difficulty getting lots of servants. It cultivated a sense of identification. The CIA would give you a crate of money, a crate of guns, and some say a crate of cocaine. but the KGB would ask about your dental problems and arrange for a free dental appointment. If you were a key scientist or something, rather than just some regular guy, they would discover your sexual tastes or your tastes in art and send around a girl or boy to suite, or some art that probably could not be obtained by mere money, or perhaps a boy carrying some art. To the best of my knowledge no one EVER got any decent sized cash payment from the Soviet Union for any act of treason, no matter how crucial. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG TKc9QQNccF421kjpfih8YdB96RpYw17p3sjofelQ 4yBG3NNFrBGZu5Zy/GwjHsjbhkfnJhmOU2OYDAyFn
participants (4)
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J.A. Terranson -
James A. Donald -
Major Variola (ret) -
Thomas Shaddack