Earlier, Chris Odner brought up some concerns about abusing anonymous remailers. (I deleted the message before saving it, so I can't quote from it). He mentioned his friend is getting abusive mail, probably from telnet to the smtp port, and then mentions the "remailers are perfect for those who would harrass and abuse others." Wait a second... here is an example of harrassment right now, without anything to do with the remailers! I mean, if you want to really hassle somebody, you could just wait patiently until someone leaves their machine for a few seconds and type sh (or ksh) while true do uuencode /vmunix irritate | mail somebody@somewhere done followed with a clear and then leave quickly. I guess I'm one of those people who would get upset and blame the person responsible for the action instead of software and/or technological advancement for possible providing a means. As Peter mentioned, payphones are already perfect for harrassment. So is junk mail... and the crucial thing here is these services cost money. I'm sure future remailers will incorporate digital cash and be a pay-for-each-remail service. Chris also mentions concers about distributing porn and stuff like that through remailers. I guess this could be done, but why give up the speed and convenience of ftp, fsp, irc (dcc), and usenet posting? These services distribute files faster and further than remailing. /-----------------------------------\ | Karl L. Barrus | | elee9sf@menudo.uh.edu | <- preferred address | barrus@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXTMail) | \-----------------------------------/
I guess I'm one of those people who would get upset and blame the person responsible for the action instead of software and/or technological advancement for possible providing a means.
I'm sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I also am blameing the person, not the technology, and I am merely worried about the response people may use if this becomes more commonplace.
As Peter mentioned, payphones are already perfect for harrassment. So is junk mail... and the crucial thing here is these services cost money. I'm sure future remailers will incorporate digital cash and be a pay-for-each-remail service.
I'm sure that would be a big help, although I'm not literate enough yet in the area of digital cash to understand how this would work.
Chris also mentions concers about distributing porn and stuff like that through remailers. I guess this could be done, but why give up the
I'm not concerned in particular with porn etc, that just happens to be the problem in this instance.
/-----------------------------------\ | Karl L. Barrus | | elee9sf@menudo.uh.edu | <- preferred address | barrus@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXTMail) | \-----------------------------------/
Happy Hunting, -Chris Odhner <cdodhner@indirect.com>
I'm sure that would be a big help, although I'm not literate enough yet in the area of digital cash to understand how this would work.
Okay - actually, you don't need to be very familiar with digital cash at all. Just think of a cash accepting remailer as one in which you are charged a fee for each use. Similar to postage stamps and postal mail. When you want to use a digital cash accepting remailer, you would first purchase some postage stamps, certificates, however you want to think of it. Then, you attach the cash/stamp/certificate to the mail (maybe by a special header field), and send it to the remailer. Your mail would probably be encrypted as well to keep others from spying on your cash, altering it (rendering it invalid) and using it for themselves. The remailer would validate your cash, probably store it in a file to prevent multiple uses, and then forward your mail to wherever. The digital cash part just means electronic forms of payment which have cash properties. Say you purchase something with cash. The merchant can't link your identity to the cash, and later when the merchant deposits cash in a bank, the bank cannot link the cash to your transactions with the merchant. But the merchant can verify the cash is valid, and the bank can too. Furthermore, you can't spend the same piece of cash twice. This is confusing to think about without being familiar with modern crypto; one of these days I shall finish a digital cash application I've been working on for people to play with. /-----------------------------------\ | Karl L. Barrus | | elee9sf@menudo.uh.edu | <- preferred address | barrus@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXTMail) | \-----------------------------------/
Just another lurker, speaking up for the first time. . . . elee9sf@menudo.uh.edu (Karl Barrus) writes: [...first, an example of how to harrass without a remailer, then:] | I guess I'm one of those people who would get upset and blame the person | responsible for the action instead of software and/or technological | advancement for possible providing a means. While I tend to agree with you on this point, the fact remains that most people, by and large, are idiots. And while I'm a closet libertarian at heart, this one simple fact of life gives me pause on a number of issues where some potentially useful and/or fun object can be put to extreme nastiness without much (or any) knowledge or imagination: firearms, poisons, neurotoxins, gamma-ray sources, genetic-engineering kits . . . and anonymous remailers. | As Peter mentioned, payphones are already perfect for harrassment. So | is junk mail... and the crucial thing here is these services cost money. | I'm sure future remailers will incorporate digital cash and be a | pay-for-each-remail service. Oh, big deal. Payphone = 25c. Junk mail = 29c for *first-class* harrassment mail. :) Anonymous E-mail remailers = something much less, or free at the moment. Money is *not* the issue. Period. The reason anonymous remailers are not the same as payphones or junk mail is that the latter two leave tangible clues behind. While I'm not entirely happy with the US justice system, it seems to me that given society's current limitations, a police force of some sort is generally a good thing (if strict controls are kept on it). (Sorry, I realize that this is a bit of a fringe opinion in *this* group, but. . . .) Both payphones and mail leave tangible clues which can be investigated and traced by law enforcement authorities. Anonymous mail doesn't---at least, not without actually running a process or a logger on the machine itself. So they're *not* equivalent. | Chris also mentions concers about distributing porn and stuff like that | through remailers. I guess this could be done, but why give up the speed and | convenience of ftp, fsp, irc (dcc), and usenet posting? These services | distribute files faster and further than remailing. But not as anonymously, except in the case of Usenet postings. ---Ken McGlothlen mcglk@cpac.washington.edu mcglk@cpac.bitnet
potentially useful and/or fun object can be put to extreme nastiness without much (or any) knowledge or imagination: firearms, poisons
Perhaps the government should quit selling these items to third world countries.
Oh, big deal. Payphone = 25c. Junk mail = 29c for *first-class* harrassment mail. :) Anonymous E-mail remailers = something much less, or free at the moment.
Money is *not* the issue. Period.
I think it is a large factor. It boils down to control. I could get my own domain from UUNET and ship megs of junk mail, but I'm probably not going to do that since I would PAY for it all. You think your email is "free" since the associated cost is hidden in your school fees.
The reason anonymous remailers are not the same as payphones or junk mail is that the latter two leave tangible clues behind.
Yeah, but the clues that a payphone call or junk mail leave are nearly worthless. I mean, I could do a "pot shot" attack on somebody, one time only, and there is no way I could be tracked, unless I were observed at the time. Just curious, but what makes e-mail so different to you? E-mail reaches thousands of people all over the world, but so does postal mail. E-mail is usually quick, and so is a phone call. Anonymous mail is harder to trace to the sender; a phone call from a payphone is harder to trace to the caller. Is it the combination of these items? These remailers are just experimental!
opinion in *this* group, but. . . .) Both payphones and mail leave tangible clues which can be investigated and traced by law enforcement authorities.
Sendmail activity is generally logged in the syslog file. Anonymous mailers make is more difficult to determine the true destination. You would have to repeatedly use the same payphone or mailbox, to leave tangible clues
participants (4)
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cdodhner＠indirect.com -
elee9sf＠Menudo.UH.EDU -
Karl Barrus
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Ken McGlothlen