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From what I can tell they don't take their religion seriously at all.

I think this is nearly as ludicrous as questioning the depth of their delusions.

Well, my point is that they are extremely serious about achieving various political goals, but don't know the first thing about what Islam really means. To put it another way, was Stalin a communist? Yes, in the sense of being a member of the Communist Party, but other than that, not in the slightest little bit. He didn't believe in Marxism in even the tiniest degree; he believed only in his own personal power, and Marxism was a convenient rhetoric for that. Same with Mr. bin Laden. He calls himself a Moslem but he doesn't act like one. A few things about Islam: The word Islam is a cognate of the Hebrew word "Shalom", meaning "peace". Islam specificly states that people who follow a religion which is based on a revealed book are alright (this basically means Jews and Christians). Islam reveres martyrs but forbids suicide attacks; ie, if you plan to be a martyr, you aren't, and you're going to hell. All these points are obvious if you've taken Islam 101. Mr. bin Laden is smart enough to understand these things but has chosen a life which is repulsive to any true Moslem. There isn't any serious theological debate about that fact. The Koran is pretty clear on the big points like that. The terrorists themselves were the same way. The American way of life, particularly things like Vegas and strip clubs, is ostensibly what they were trying to destroy, and yet they couldn't resist it at a personal level. This is just how human beings are. Humans are hypocrites who say, "Do as I say, not as I do." You can see it everywhere: Rosie O'donnel's bodyguards carry guns, the Catholic clergy is infested with AIDS, Clinton swore to defend the Constution, whatever, that's just how people are.

It is much harder to convince someone to kill themselves for you without something supernatural (irrefutable, possibly tapping into certain circuits) ---the japs had their emperor, etc.

Actually.... this brings up a very interesting point. The fact is, these guys had families, spoke English, had skills, had visas to Western countries, probably had Western friends, basically they were people who could have had bright hopes and futures. They also had a taste of the West and they liked it, including little Western perks like alcohol and lap dances. They were older, not wide-eyed teenagers. As I understand, they were recent converts to the extremist cause. I think some of them converted while in Western countries. Hmmm, it's possible for a guy in that position (visa, future, skills, Western tastes) to convert to someone who wants to go out in a fireball for Allah, but it makes me wonder a little bit if there was more to it than that. Also, to get 19 such people to commit over a period of years with no leaks, including no leaks from people who turned down this fabulous once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, quite amazing. Maybe the 70-eager-virgins-a-day was the carrot, but I suspect there may have been a stick, too. That would be an interesting thing to know more about.