-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, November 12, 2001, at 03:27 PM, Faustine wrote: > If questioning your commitment is all it > takes to push your buttons, I'd say that's less than optimal. >>You, thank Baal, have no knowledge of what "pushes my buttons." True, but even the most casual perusal of the archive suggests you've got plenty of them. I bet a person could really learn a lot by spending some quality time with Google, taking careful notes on the differences between posts you ignore, ones you're content to dismiss with frosty condescension, what really seems to bother the hell out of you, ones that should bother the hell out of you but you choose to ignore, etc. etc. It's a wonder someone hasn't pulled a number on you already. Sometimes I wonder about "Agent Farr" though. >You also have almost no list experience here (though this has never stopped >you from lecturing us on things you've read about in books). OR: "damn whippersnapper!" >I write about what I desire to write about. Of course. As long as you aren't getting jerked around, more power to you. >Now that the training camp is over, there is no threat to the security >of the operation. They lack time machines. Why talk about it though? The sheer satisfaction of imagining feds and sheeple crapping their pants in fearful anticipation? Even if nothing happened at all, you have to realize unsympathetic people who aren't in on your peculiar brand of humor are going to take things like this at face value and hold it against you. You risk getting slapped around with the anti-paramilitary training statutes whether you're kidding or not. Odds are you don't care one way or the other, but it seemed unnecessarily reckless, that's all. For your own sake. > I'm sure anyone who bears ill-will to the group is finding this whole > thread quite instructive--undoubtedly the point of the original post in the > first place. Good show. How sickening to think that now you have to worry > about getting anti-paramilitary training statutes dumped on you (on top > of anything else) just because a few people couldn't resist showing up a > stupid troll. >>And which "anti-paramilitary traning statutes" would these be? (gratuitous ad hominem snipped) - From the "Allegiance to the US" section of the handbook on reasons for denying clearance: http://www.dss.mil/training/adr/alleg/allegF.htm Laws Regarding Private Militias Federal law prohibits paramilitary training and the manufacture or transport of weapons with the knowledge or intent that they will be used to create a civil disturbance. (Ref 10) Federal law differs from most state laws prohibiting paramilitary training in that it applies only to the trainers, not the trainees. Under most state laws governing paramilitary training, participation as a trainee is also illegal. Laws are on the books in 41 states to ban either the militias themselves or paramilitary training or both. (Ref 11) The two types of laws operate differently. Anti-paramilitary training laws ban groups whose members know or intend that a civil disorder will result from their activities. Anti-militia laws ban all unauthorized militias, regardless of whether the participants have any specific criminal intent or knowledge. Anti-militia laws generally require evidence that a group of people are associated together in a formal military-type organization. Anti-paramilitary training statutes, by contrast, can be used against groups as small as two or three people. Both types of laws generally exempt organizations like hunting clubs. These laws are seldom enforced, but they are relevant to an adjudicative determination that an individual is engaging in either lawful or unlawful militia activities. The state laws and the legal citations for them are as follows: Alabama. Anti-militia. Ala. Code ' 31-2-125 Arizona. Anti-militia. Ariz. Rev. Stat. Ann. ' 26-123. Arkansas. Anti-paramilitary training. Ark. Code ' 5-71-301 to -303. California. Anti-paramilitary training. Cal. Penal Code ' 11460. Colorado. Anti-paramilitary training. Colo. Rev. Stat. ' 18-9-120. Connecticut. Anti-paramilitary training. Conn. Gen. Stat. ' 53-206b. Florida. Anti-militia and anti-paramilitary training. Fla. Stat. Ann. ch. 870.06, 790.29. Georgia. Anti-militia and anti-paramilitary training. Ga. Code Ann. '' 38-2-277, 16-11-150 to -152. Idaho. Anti-militia and anti-paramilitary training. Idaho Code '' 46-802, 18-8101 to -8105. Iowa. Anti-militia. Iowa Code ' 29A.31 Illinois. Anti-militia and anti-paramilitary training. Ill. Rev. Stat. ch. 1805, para 94-95. Kansas. Anti-militia. Kan. Stat. Ann. ' 48-203. Kentucky. Anti-militia. Ky. Rev. Stat. Ann. ' 38.440. Louisiana. Anti-paramilitary training. La. Rev. Stat. Ann. ' 117.1. Maine. Anti-militia. Me. Rev. Stat. Ann. tit. 37-B, ' 342.2. Maryland. Anti-militia. Md. Code Ann. art. 65, ' 35. Massachusetts. Anti-militia. Mass. Gen. L. ch. 33 ' 129-132. Michigan. Anti-paramilitary training. Mich. Comp. Laws ' 750.528a. Minnesota. Anti-militia. Minn. Stat. ' 624.61. Mississippi. Anti-militia. Miss. Code Ann. ' 33-1-31. Missouri. Anti-paramilitary training. Mo. Rev. Stat. ' 574.070. Nebraska. Anti-paramilitary training. Neb. Rev. Stat. ' 28-1480 to -1482. Nevada. Anti-militia. Nev. Rev. Stat. ' 203.080. New Hampshire. Anti-militia. N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. ' 111:15. New Jersey. Anti-paramilitary training. N.J. Rev. Stat. ' 2C:39-14. New Mexico. Anti-paramilitary training. N.M. Stat. Ann. ' 30-20A-1 to -4. New York. Anti-militia and anti-paramilitary training. N.Y. Mil. Law ' 240. North Carolina. Anti-militia and anti-paramilitary training. N.C. Gen. Stat. '' 127A-151, 14-288.20. North Dakota. Anti-militia. N.D. Cent. Code ' 37-01-21. Oklahoma. Anti-paramilitary training. Okla. Stat. Ann. tit. 21, ' 1321.10. Oregon. Anti-paramilitary training. Or. Rev. Stat. ' 166.660. Pennsylvania. Anti-paramilitary training. 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. ' 5515. Rhode Island. anti-militia and anti-paramilitary training. R.I. Gen. Laws '' 30-12-7, 11-55-1 to -3. South Carolina. Anti-paramilitary training. S.C. Code Ann. ' 16-8-10 to -30. Tennessee. Anti-paramilitary training. Tenn. Code Ann. ' 39-17-314. Texas. Anti-militia. Tex. Govt. Code; Ann. ' 431.010. Virginia. Anti-paramilitary training. Va. Code Ann. '' 18.2-433.1 to -433.3. Washington. Anti-militia. Wash. Rev. Code ' 38.40.120. West Virginia. Anti-militia. W.Va. Code ' 15-1F-7. Wyoming. Anti-militia. Wyo. Stat. ' 19-1-106. >And what is done by other memmbers of a list does not establish guilt by >association, except in your fevered mind. Oh, but it's not just my fevered mind in particular. See "Association With Certain Extremist Organizations or Groups" as a reason to deny security clearance in the above handbook. The list might not be a group now, but once you get branded as conducting illegal paramilitary training for whatever reason, joke or not, the sad fact is you certainly will be. >For example, the discussion I contributed to on hacking the air traffic >control system for political purposes makes you guilty of which crime >and in which way? Guilt by association, of course. It's back. > Here's hoping your temper doesn't get the better of you. >>You are ignorant of my mental state of mind. Twit. - --Tim May Nevertheless, it's endlessly fascinating, isn't it, grumpy. ~Faustine. *** The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms. - --William O. Douglas, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version) iQA/AwUBO/Cjkfg5Tuca7bfvEQJTwACfdybIDMtjdhgkRrZ2mwMqLruLgSMAn2N6 7QNw8Zt6eYXlCOCRh/VsHb2y =5Aux -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 11:37:39PM -0500, Faustine cited:
Which says:
Laws are on the books in 41 states to ban either the militias themselves or paramilitary training or both. (Ref 11) [...] California. Anti-paramilitary training. Cal. Penal Code ' 11460. [...]
Let's check the above, using California as an example since that's what started this thread. What I found here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=62867026669+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve Says in the relevant section: 11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars by both. As used in this subdivision, "paramilitary organization" means an organization which is not an agency of the United States government or of the State of California, or which is not a private school meeting the requirements set forth in Section 12154 of the Education Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerilla warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with, school activities. Faustine's loose definition of "paramilitary training" may seem to apply, but if you read carefully, the legal definition used in the California penal code is a bit narrower. Naturally I'm not arguing that such laws are just, sound, or advisable. ObCypherpunk: Look for "instruction in hacking techniques or computer breaking-and-entering not performed by a state-licensed instructor" next. -Declan
At 12:34 AM 11/13/2001 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
Says in the relevant section: 11460. (a) Any two or more persons who assemble as a paramilitary organization for the purpose of practicing with weapons shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than one year or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars by both.
So the Boy Scout rifle range I went to as a kid would get busted if they were doing the same in California today?
As used in this subdivision, "paramilitary organization" means an organization which is not an agency of the United States government or of the State of California, or which is not a private school meeting the requirements set forth in Section 12154 of the Education Code, but which engages in instruction or training in guerilla warfare or sabotage, or which, as an organization, engages in rioting or the violent disruption of, or the violent interference with, school activities.
Faustine's loose definition of "paramilitary training" may seem to apply, but if you read carefully, the legal definition used in the California penal code is a bit narrower.
What a relief! :-)
participants (3)
-
Bill Stewart -
Declan McCullagh -
Faustine