Greetings Has Saddam recieved a lawyer yet? Will Saddam be judged by a court having jurisdiction and being recognized internationally?
privacy.at Anonymous Remailer wrote:
Greetings
Has Saddam recieved a lawyer yet? Will Saddam be judged by a court having jurisdiction and being recognized internationally?
The Hague has no jurisdiction over crimes committed in the past due to the "Henry Kissinger" clause insisted upon by the US. Saddam's guilt in a smaller number of deaths is being pushed hard to justify the exercise in the Mid-East so the outcome is certain and will be dressed appropriately I'm sure. My guess is that a suitable Iraqi court won't take note of the number of civilian deaths due to bombings and economic sanctions by its liberators.
--
Has Saddam recieved a lawyer yet? Will Saddam be judged by a court having jurisdiction and being recognized internationally?
Saddam will be judged by his victims, who have jurisdiction enough for me. Who cares whether the guys at the Hague agree? Hague claims of jurisdiction have unfailingly led to bad results, as in the current disastrous trial of Milosevic. This is the same problem as occurred when the Westphalian state took over police powers from the local gentry, but in even more extreme form. The more distant the police and courts are from the crime, the criminals, and the victims, the less likely they are to provide justice, and the slower, more expensive, and less effectual that justice will be, if justice comes at all, which it probably will not. Hague justice does not work. It is failing with Milosevic. It would fail with Saddam. The court at the Hague is apt to convict the innocent and acquit the guilty in the face of all evidence, illustrating in more extreme form the problems that occur with the police powers of the Westphalian state. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG IiS2b9l7DPo2NQXOdJr115U+lCtla97DXp8x4D8z 4bCeKZNEInAT6Ra8UWqc7RyU+Uo6+JH777FclJ48e
On 19 Dec, James A. Donald wrote:
-- Saddam will be judged by his victims, who have jurisdiction enough for me.
It is tempting to say that the victims have some kind of natural right to see justice done against this tyrant. The problem is that the there is no one in Iraq with legitimate authority to convene such a court, least of all the US or their puppet regime. In my opinion, Saddam should be released, or shipped out to an international court with recognized authority. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ -- Visit proclus realm! http://proclus.tripod.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type APPLICATION/pgp-signature]
-- James A. Donald:
Saddam will be judged by his victims, who have jurisdiction enough for me.
proclus@gnu-darwin.org
It is tempting to say that the victims have some kind of natural right to see justice done against this tyrant. The problem is that the there is no one in Iraq with legitimate authority
Well if there is no legitimate authority, then state of nature applies. Give him the justice that Mussolini and Ceasescu got. Hang him by his feet from a lamp post in central Baghdad for his victims to use as pinata But I think we can find a legitimate authority somewhat better than that. And if we cannot, the mob has more legitimacy than the Hague. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG CH40CSgX5Tgdj/SDJtnV3WgkBxSNswHYXJRRtrPl 4nJVivIV8DTmP2YOHTrLI5FBALdL8ZRNG8SGqcbVH
On 19 Dec, James A. Donald wrote:
Well if there is no legitimate authority, then state of nature applies. Give him the justice that Mussolini and Ceasescu got. Hang him by his feet from a lamp post in central Baghdad for his victims to use as pinata
This would be an argument that the victims have a natural right to administer judgment against Saddam, which might be a valid point. In order to rightly exercise that perogative, the people of Iraq will be required to elect judges, or have them appointed by their elected representative. This would be a legitimate court in Iraq, but US military justice is illegitimate in Iraq, because of the illegal aggression.
But I think we can find a legitimate authority somewhat better than that. And if we cannot, the mob has more legitimacy than the Hague.
I'm afraid that due to the imperious actions of the Bush administration, you may be right about this. Moreover, the US is in a bind, because the US rulers were complicit in Saddam's only credible war crimes. For this reason they will never turn him over to the international courts, where this truth would be spoken loudly and repeatedly. It appears to me that elected judges is the way to go. Thank you for this stimulating discussion. Regards, proclus http://www.gnu-darwin.org/ -- Visit proclus realm! http://proclus.tripod.com/ -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GMU/S d+@ s: a+ C++++ UBULI++++$ P+ L+++(++++) E--- W++ N- !o K- w--- !O M++@ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t+++(+) 5+++ X+ R tv-(--)@ b !DI D- G e++++ h--- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type APPLICATION/pgp-signature]
James A. Donald wrote:
Well if there is no legitimate authority, then state of nature applies. Give him the justice that Mussolini and Ceasescu got. Hang him by his feet from a lamp post in central Baghdad for his victims to use as pinata
Bear in mind that we could probably find plenty of victims of the Bush administration who would be willing to provide this variety of justice to America's dictator and a couple dozen of his closest Neocon advisors. Invading a country, and then turning its leader over to his political enemies for a quick show trial and execution, while singing the "tried by his own people" propaganda tune, hardly qualifies as justice. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
participants (5)
-
Eric Cordian -
James A. Donald -
privacy.at Anonymous Remailer -
proclus＠gnu-darwin.org -
Richard Fiero