To: cypherpunks@toad.com ************* Original From: FRISSELL * FORWARDED * To: CYPHERPUNKS@TOAD.COM * MESSAGE * Date/Number: 09/12/93 - Not Yet Posted ************* On: PANIX - 0000 - Email ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To: cme@ellisun.sw.stratus.com Here I innocently go away for the weekend and miss a hot thread on my favorite topic. Appropriate for the list because it's about what this list is about and what the results of its activities might be. Better late than never... CC> I have heard cypherpunks described as two groups under one label: CC> 1. those of us who advocate privacy in private hands CC> CC> 2. those who advocate anarchy CC> CC> I'm in the privacy camp and worry that CC> enough talk from the anarchists will cause the privacy to be CC> attacked. I fully expect total retaliation by the governments of CC> the world against any effective anarchy. The wilder the threats CC> (even if they're not real), the stronger the retaliation. We could CC> lose all privacy as a result. I try not to advocate anarchy but rather to observe it. It is difficult for large institutions to exercise control over ever more powerful individuals. Even though I like crypto, it is neither necessary nor sufficient for what I'll call "governmental downsizing" to avoid controversy. IBM didn't "rightsize" because sweet reason convinced it to. It righsized (and is still rightsizing) because markets convinced it to. We already see signs of governments becoming mere market actors particularly in the currency markets. The nets themselves are the most powerful technology which will reduce the role nation states have to play on the world stage. Crackdowns against strong crypto are not relevant. Since the nation state is bound to the nation and individuals are not, telecoms tends to liberate individuals from states. If I can live anywhere and work anywhere else, I am hard to find much less control. People need not have to even be aware of what they are doing to participate in this process. If they are hired as contingent workers over the nets because that's where the work is, they will be outside of the control mechanism and have to choose to bring themselves back in. Some will do so many will not. For years, those who became expats or invested money overseas have had to make an affirmative choice to file US tax returns or report their overseas income on their returns. Some did so. Many did not. 61% of US expats don't file US returns even though most have income. Everyone on the nets is effectively an expat. According to IRS studies, only *48%* of the income of small businesses is reported. Those are businesses physically located in the US. Since computers will be converting most of us into small business operators (selling ourselves as permanent temps at least) and since the nets encourage locational ambiguity, we will have to choose to cooperate with our rulers. What do we call a "voluntary government"? A church, a social club, a corporation, or a family but not (according to *my* poli sci profs) a government. "An institution that claims a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force in a given geographic area." Note that by the end of this year, some Continental Cable subscribers will have 100 mbs connections to Internet. Once more people do and they find that they can buy/obtain almost anything digitizable (including "free" international telephone calls) over this link, they will do so. They will have expanded their area of freedom by downloading porno from Zimbabwae (or whatever from wherever). A few more expansions of liberty and the state is reduced to just another club. CC> For example, crypto-anarchic banks -- cute idea -- but if CC> you ever want a cop to make your banker give you the money, the CC> banker can't be anonymous and neither can you account be. Bankers don't give you your money because of fear of cops but because of the desire for future business. Duncan Frissell What is the world's most toxic hazardous waste dump? -- Watch this signature line for the surprising answer. * RM 1.2 * Eval Day 1 * X