On Dec 30, 2003, at 10:01 PM, jal@jal.org wrote:
(This space reserved for former Marxist and now neocon standard-bearer James Donald to foam that I am a Saddam lover and a supporter of Chomsky.)
I will say that I was a a former marxist. This is not to bow at the feet of some better method, nor to trivialize the past.
My awakening, as it were, actually happened here, for better or worse. Tim, Hal, Lucky, Uni and to some extent Detweiler all helped form my view. More than a few others. This was back in '93, mostly. At least, the founding, for me was then. I know some things happened later (I saw Uni present his Coke Presentation in 2002 for the first time), and I became concerned with business, or at least companies that wanted cash, and to be a business later.
I never went through a Marxist phase, never even came close. This despite entering college in 1970, this despite going to a school where the dominant paradigm was leftist (UC Santa Barbara). I occasionally wonder what my perspective might be had I ever held leftist, collectivist thoughts. Oh well, I'll never know. Thirty years ago I _was_ more charitable about the various groups which claim to have been aggrieved, and I dutifully referred to negroes as "blacks," argued earnestly with doubting leftists about the importance of the profit motive, cited semi-leftists who had reasonable things to say about capitalism and liberty and the Constitution. But over the years, as I have seen a huge chunk of money taken from me at gunpoint and given to welfare skanks, inner city negro mutants, gay activist buttfucker San Francisco queer groups, foreign nations with dictators like Hussein (both of them), Mubarek, Amin, Meir, Rabin, and a hundred others, and as education has declined while the pigeons demand more handouts...I have become what I call a "vengeance libertarian." While certain theoreticians of 30 years argued for silly ideas about how how it is "immoral" to land on another's balcony while falling from a building, because the property rights had not been negotiated, and thus argued that even self-defense is fraught with moral problems, another camp of us were developing the idea that vengeance is good, that crypto anarchy will not only let some of us "withdraw from the system," a la Galt's Gulch, but also it will let us execute justice on those who stole from us. For every negro welfare momma who took money for the past number of years, tell her to pay it all back, with compounded interest, or face time in a labor camp to repay what she stole. And if she cannot, or will not, which is ovewhelmingly likely, harvest her organs (if any takers can be found) and send the leftovers up the smokestacks. Ditto for the queers who have collected "public health" funds to pay for their sodomy. (I have no issue with their choices of partners, except that the diseases they contract via their habits, and their inability to work, is their problem, not mine. And not any corporations, except by the choice of that corporation.) Vengeance libertarianism is the rational kind. It will result in 20-40 million of the leeches, the bums, the minority grifters, the so-called aggrieved, the winos, the addicts, all being sent up the chimneys. Hitler had only minor reasons to go after the Jews (many of them had manipulated the economy to favor Jews while also preaching a "no defense" loser strategy to their untermenschen), we have much more reason to go after the tens of millions of underpeople who have been using their thugs in government to steal from us. We have much more justification today to liquidate the parsites than Hitler ever had. As for government, I estimate that 99% of those in Congress and government agencies in the past 40 years have earned killing. Of current Congressvarmints, only two seem to be not guilty. Of low-level employees, a bunch are just willing dweebs, and may be able to work off their debts in a labor camp for a decade or two. But probably the cleaner solution is just to do a thermonuclear cauterization of the region surrounding Washington and start fresh from there with a very limited government that honors the Constitution instead of catering to negroes and queers and welfare addicts. Crypto anarchy will make delivering justice to tens of millions a reality. The world will learn a lesson when we burn off these criminals. --Tim May "Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice."--Barry Goldwater
What's pleasurable about reading the fiction of ideologues like Tim is the smack-down tone of their prejudices. Fake, fake, fake. Nowhere in Tim's spew is the recognition that the largest beneficiaries of government favoritism are corporations and wealthy individuals like himself, especially those associated with the greeders of the defense industry, rather the national security state. No US institution has been uncontaminated by the wealth generated by the illusion of US enemies and the raping of the economy to simulate battle with such fictional threats, at home and abroad. Welfare is puny by comparison, and Tim's castigation of it is like the master of the house bitching about health needs of his servants while requiring them to wipe his ass. Standard nouveau riche conceit which reveals a fear of again being a poor asswipe himself, the stench of self-loathing inescapable. The favorite mindlessness of the ideologue, is to rehash endlessly comfortable old prejudices, chanting repetitively the same accusations, avoiding self-criticism in the manner of the self-righteous, professing of certainty to conceal doubt, working hard to present an image of confidence, most often by blaming and attacking easy targets. The rich fear the poor, and rightly so, for they know who pays for their perks. And the answer to this fear is always threats of violence, the dominant paradigm of those who reap the most benefits from house rules of the United States. Cloaked, as ever, in blind faith in the "Constitution," or another rigged fat cat document used to fleece the peasants at home and abroad, based as they always are on justification of the supremacy of the over-privileged. Eveready to shoot those who disagree, send them up the chimneys, the teenie-bopper ideologue struts mightily against imaginary demons. Wasn't it a leftist who coined Goldwater's most memorable phrase? Extremists are all alike, full of shit and hatred, their own worst enemy. Suicide prone, but afraid to go alone.
On Dec 31, 2003, at 4:38 AM, John Young wrote:
Nowhere in Tim's spew is the recognition that the largest beneficiaries of government favoritism are corporations and wealthy individuals like himself, especially those associated with the greeders of the defense industry, rather the national security state. No US institution has been uncontaminated by the wealth generated by the illusion of US enemies and the raping of the economy to simulate battle with such fictional threats, at home and abroad.
Utter nonsense. A corporation paying 45% of its profits in tax (not to mention similar high tax rates on tens of thousands of its employees) gets little or nothing "back" from the state. Contrast this to the growing number of "on disability" scams, "services" recipients, welfare of various sorts, and general incentives not to work or save. My state, California, has very high income and investment taxes, and very high local and property taxes...and yet the taxes can't keep up with the giveaways to bums, winos, unwed mothers, queers, beggars, "disabled," and general layabouts. And the state even makes it illegal to hire people for day jobs (without filling out numerous forms, submitting reports to Cal-OSHA, SSA, etc.). Meanwhile, in our many Mexican towns here in California, unwed Mexican mamas push their baby strollers down to La Famiglia and WICC to get their "benefits." I've never taken a dime of "unemployment" or "welfare" or "Social Security" or any other money stolen from taxpayers to give to layabouts. Meanwhile, I've paid a vast amount of taxes. I say feed the bums into incinerators. The vilest of them should be tortured first. --Tim May "The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat
The real problem is that the human race itself is either an alien species that doesn't belong on this planet, or perhaps just an evolutionary mishap akin to a cancer that has used far more than it's fair share of world resources. It's not that just some humans are "useless eaters", it's that all are, and the Goddess Gaia is clearly hard at work trying to rectify this situation with a variety of new bioweapons, i.e., AIDS, ebola, etc. which will soon, I'm sure, reduce the human population as is most necessary, by half, if not three-quarters, or perhaps just eliminate it all together -- to the wild applause of the rest of the Earth. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
Tim May wrote:
For every negro welfare momma who took money for the past number of years, tell her to pay it all back, with compounded interest, or face time in a labor camp to repay what she stole. And if she cannot, or will not, which is ovewhelmingly likely, harvest her organs (if any takers can be found) and send the leftovers up the smokestacks.
Ditto for the queers who have collected "public health" funds to pay for their sodomy. (I have no issue with their choices of partners, except that the diseases they contract via their habits, and their inability to work, is their problem, not mine. And not any corporations, except by the choice of that corporation.)
Vengeance libertarianism is the rational kind. It will result in 20-40 million of the leeches, the bums, the minority grifters, the so-called aggrieved, the winos, the addicts, all being sent up the chimneys.
See, the problem with your attitude is that it results in a "me me me" approach. If mankind would act that way we would have been extinct a long time ago. A single human being is a rather weak individual. There isn't much we could have done. Only after we managed to work together as a society we were able to "conquer" the planet, and most likely ultimatly destroy it for all forms of life. Even though I do not agree with people sitting on their asses and not working, I do not think that we should turn our backs to them and ignore them. If society casts out the weakest as a strategie of survival than something here is horribly wrong. Your Stereotyping doesn't really help either to make your point as they are just simply painting black and white, and literally meaning it that way. Quality of Life has nothing to do with how much money you make, but how you live your life. This seems to be something that is slowly forgotten in the western world, especially north america. M.
-- On 30 Dec 2003 at 22:49, Tim May wrote:
I never went through a Marxist phase, never even came close.
You are real close right now. You just issued the "sovereignty" rationalization for Saddam's crimes, and your peculiar recollection of the speakers at those Vietnam war demonstrations sounds like a marxist's recollection, and of course theire are your regular call for various groups to be sent up the chimney's, which presupposes some benevolent vanguard group wise enough and virtuous enough to identify which individuals belong to these undesirable categories and need to go up the chimneys. It is not that you never were close to being a communist, it is that you have never been close to repenting, except on tax and spend issues. Apart from taxes, you are still as commie as ever. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG n3CKSWZU6+m1x4nkwGwK0eRrgkUtI5TMsXWBKz5E 4FWnzNBI3XNIbvyHNKS2VTD1t7nF94SM3amrrE8Lu
If those are your beliefs, then by all means, set the first example, and go kill yourself. Better yet, sacrifice yourself to your goddess... By doing so, you'll also earn yourself a Darwin Award... unless you've already fathered kids... But from your tone of voice, I'd say you've probably castrated yourself years ago. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :25Kliters anthrax, 38K liters botulinum toxin, 500 tons of /|\ \|/ :sarin, mustard and VX gas, mobile bio-weapons labs, nukular /\|/\ <--*-->:weapons.. Reasons for war on Iraq - GWB 2003-01-28 speech. \/|\/ /|\ :Found to date: 0. Cost of war: $800,000,000,000 USD. \|/ + v + : The look on Sadam's face - priceless! --------_sunder_@_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Wed, 31 Dec 2003, Harmon Seaver wrote:
The real problem is that the human race itself is either an alien species that doesn't belong on this planet, or perhaps just an evolutionary mishap akin to a cancer that has used far more than it's fair share of world resources.
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Tim May wrote:
Vengeance libertarianism is the rational kind. It will result in 20-40 million of the leeches, the bums, the minority grifters, the so-called aggrieved, the winos, the addicts, all being sent up the chimneys.
It will result in couple dozen (at most) vengeance "libertatians" being steamrolled over by the masses of those they so despise, after first few shots. Face it, you're outgunned.
The world will learn a lesson when we burn off these criminals.
Who "we"? Is there somebody other who thinks it's a viable idea, or is it a grammatical form of the "We the King" type?
At 10:18 AM 12/31/03 -0600, Harmon Seaver wrote:
It's not that just some humans are "useless eaters", it's that all are, and the Goddess Gaia is clearly hard at work trying to rectify this situation with a variety of new bioweapons, i.e., AIDS, ebola, etc. which will soon, I'm sure, reduce the human population as is most necessary, by half, if not three-quarters, or perhaps just eliminate it all together -- to the wild applause of the rest of the Earth.
You do know she's been trying the same scheme for several hundred thousand years, right? As an artist, I think she's in a creative decline. Ebola is picturesque and flashy, but not all that scary unless your funeral rites involve lots of contact with the blood of your dearly departed. AIDS is more subtle, rather like syphlus before good antibiotics, but it's not her best work. Even SARS is Yet Another Coughed Contagion. If I recall correctly, smallpox got 90% of the American Indians who were exposed, and measles killed something like 1/3 of Roman citizens. Bubonic and pneumonic plague swept through European cities and wiped out huge numbers of people, and they're still with us, though mainly places with lousy public health and sanitation. And lets not forget her original innovation for discouraging cities, death-by-crapping-out-all-your-electrolytes. If diseases get us, they won't be Gaia's work, but rather some of her more modern imitators in the bioweapons labs of various countries. Like every great artist, she's spawned a host of followers, mostly not too imaginative, but some of whom may take her ideas and techniques to undreamt-of levels. ...
Harmon Seaver
--John (*cough, cough*) Kelsey, kelsey.j@ix.netcom.com PGP: FA48 3237 9AD5 30AC EEDD BBC8 2A80 6948 4CAA F259
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 04:38:04AM -0800, John Young wrote:
What's pleasurable about reading the fiction of ideologues like Tim is the smack-down tone of their prejudices. Fake, fake, fake.
Nowhere in Tim's spew is the recognition that the largest beneficiaries of government favoritism are corporations and wealthy individuals like himself, especially those associated with the greeders of the defense industry, rather the national security state. No US institution has been uncontaminated by the wealth generated by the illusion of US enemies and the raping of the economy to simulate battle with such fictional threats, at home and abroad.
Perhaps it is more thetorically satisfying? I can't speak for Tim or his writing process. But nowhere have I ever seen him support corporate welfare, and in fact the logical flow of his argument made in the post to which you replied would condemn that as well. More importantly, your claims are incorrect. Defense is $379 billion for FY2003, while social security, income security, medicare, health, education and other social services, community development, housing credits, and so on total over $1358 billion. That's not counting "international affairs" (a category I take to include foreign aid), agriculture, transportation, and other programs of dubious necessity that total hundreds of billions more. -Declan Source: http://www.bea.gov/bea/ARTICLES/2002/03March/0302FedBudget.pdf
On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 10:23:27AM -0500, Michael Kalus wrote:
If mankind would act that way we would have been extinct a long time ago. A single human being is a rather weak individual. There isn't much we could have done. ... Even though I do not agree with people sitting on their asses and not working, I do not think that we should turn our backs to them and ignore them. If society casts out the weakest as a strategie of survival than something here is horribly wrong.
This is trite nonsense that is not really interesting or responsive to Tim's claims. Obviously voluntary trade and other forms of economic cooperation in a large marketplace, the more global the better, is the best way to create wealth. Corporations like Tim's former employer Intel could not exist otherwise. But the emphasis, which you missed, is on the phrase "voluntary." -Declan
participants (9)
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Declan McCullagh -
Harmon Seaver -
James A. Donald -
John Kelsey -
John Young -
Michael Kalus -
Sunder -
Thomas Shaddack -
Tim May