Re: U.S. in violation of Geneva convention?
After WWI the "winners" humiliated the loosers badly. This is one of the main reasons Hitler came to power and got support from the Germans for the aggressions that started the war. He managed to use these feelings of being treated as dogs and paying to heavy for the first war. Also they were very humiliated by the fact that France then occupied part of western Germany. After WWII the "winners" had learned their lesson from WWI pretty well. Now they did not humilate the people of Germany like after the first war. We got the Marshal plan and so on. Let's face it: not even the Nazi war criminals were treated in the way Saddam has been treated. Is this something U.S. should feel comfortable with then? Some people on this list seem to have these disturbing thoughts. It will backfire sooner or later I'm afraid. And then it may be our kids who pay the price.
At 02:00 AM 12/19/2003, Nomen Nescio wrote:
After WWI the "winners" humiliated the loosers badly. This is one of the main reasons Hitler came to power and got support from the Germans for the aggressions that started the war. He managed to use these feelings of being treated as dogs and paying to heavy for the first war. Also they were very humiliated by the fact that France then occupied part of western Germany.
That was certainly one of the most overt reasons for the war. An equally plausible reason has it as an inevitable climax of a centuries-long philosophic development, preaching three fundamental ideas: the worship of unreason, the demand for self-sacrifice and the elevation of society or the state above the individual. These three ideas spewed forth from some of the most respected philosophers of the late 19th Century (e.g., Kant). An excellent book "Ominous Parallels," by Leonard Peikoff builds the case that the rise of Nazism was facilitated by the philosophical content of mainstream German culture, and that the basic anti-individualist, anti-reason orientations of this culture are also apparent in modern American culture (hence the "Ominous Parallels"). steve
Ken, Eh what? Yes I've heard a lot of the Soviet union, however I don't see what you meant by that comment here. What I was referring to was the winning powers' treatment of the Nazi war criminals after WWII, Nurnburg trials and so on. (Note the word "trials" here) I don't think I've ever heard that the Nazi prisoners where drugged, abused or otherwice tortured or mistreated and humiliated. Feel free to enlighten me on this.
-- On 19 Dec 2003 at 19:50, Nomen Nescio wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard that the Nazi prisoners where drugged, abused or otherwice tortured or mistreated and humiliated. Feel free to enlighten me on this.
if you count a haircut as abuse, torture, and mistreatment, I expect that they were. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG LMgH3KrVc01cxKGLDz79xYZZW/NEDRXgsNqjdHep 4N3mLSiFXrfdllK8ARj0Y2Aj3QjP3ZT0efID0sD5Z
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 19-Dec-03, at 11:55 AM, ken wrote:
Nomen Nescio wrote:
Let's face it: not even the Nazi war criminals were treated in the way Saddam has been treated.
Eh?
And have you heard about the Soviet Union?
I'll take it then that the US has become the USSSR these days? After all this is the argument that gets brought up here all the time "But the USSSR did it....". M. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP+NLbmlCnxcrW2uuEQLq0ACgilN5t6kaUb2ypyTgt/KoX6jv4r4Ani/c hGl1/s2A2eO1C8yPb0x9n5+x =mDsf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- On 19 Dec 2003 at 11:00, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Let's face it: not even the Nazi war criminals were treated in the way Saddam has been treated.
Oh no, he got a shave and a dental examination, the horror, the horror. And in due course he is going to get an execution, which is exactly what the nazi war criminals got. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 1Lc+zlzr6cys1/DeraqXfhpuVH9FvHHd5rtUuv/E 4gp4fEG6nAev5a7thtLVe+M7bqpvkok78SJyY0f1N
On 19 Dec 2003 at 11:00, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Let's face it: not even the Nazi war criminals were treated in the way Saddam has been treated.
So far he's avoided being treated like Mussolini. At 11:35 AM 12/19/2003 -0800, James A. Donald wrote:
Oh no, he got a shave and a dental examination, the horror, the horror.
While James has been wrong about 90% of this discussion (:-), I have to agree with him here - while the US was clearly propagandizing that they had him in their absolute control, they were also initially treating him in a quasi-civilized manner. The dude's been hiding in a hole in the ground, so checking him for lice is reasonable treatment. (I'm puzzled by the comment about the shave, though - all the "fair and balanced" news coverage still shows him with the beard....) On the other hand, various spokescritters keep saying that they're going to stop treating him in a civilized manner, and that while they're not quite going to torture him, they're going to put him in a high-stress sleep-deprivation environment. I'm not sure if they're going more for the Vietnamese tiger cage model, or the Israeli army Palestinian Detainee model, or the Soviet purged general model, but it's No More Mr. Civilized until he confesses his crimes against the society.
And in due course he is going to get an execution, which is exactly what the nazi war criminals got.
In general, between the times the Nazi war criminals were captured and the times they got tried and hanged or shot, the US mostly treated most of them in a civilized manner, except during the active parts of the war where sometimes they wanted operational information. Apparently not the case here.
At 11:00 +0100 on 12/19/03, Nomen Nescio wrote:
After WWI the "winners" humiliated the loosers badly. This is one of the main reasons Hitler came to power and got support from the Germans for the aggressions that started the war. He managed to use these feelings of being treated as dogs and paying to heavy for the first war. Also they were very humiliated by the fact that France then occupied part of western Germany.
After WWII the "winners" had learned their lesson from WWI pretty well. Now they did not humilate the people of Germany like after the first war. We got the Marshal plan and so on.
Let's face it: not even the Nazi war criminals were treated in the way Saddam has been treated.
Is this something U.S. should feel comfortable with then? Some people on this list seem to have these disturbing thoughts.
It will backfire sooner or later I'm afraid. And then it may be our kids who pay the price.
-- __________________________________________ Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while, you realize the pig is enjoying it. __________________________________________ Kevin Elliott <mailto:kelliott@mac.com> ICQ#23758827 AIM ID: teargo iChatAV: kelliott@mac.com (video chat available) __________________________________________
participants (7)
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Bill Stewart -
James A. Donald -
ken -
Kevin Elliott -
Michael Kalus -
Nomen Nescio -
Steve Schear