Senators from Utah being Southern
At 12:30 PM 6/19/03 -0500, John Washburn wrote:
Utah is Southern? I do not want directions from you. :-)
Well, it is southern w.r.t. certain states, but yeah, y'all got me. But what I meant was, a jeebus-talking, flag-waving pinhead. A look at hatchmusic.com (while its still up :-) supports that description. Not all niggers are negroes, you know. And many negroes are not niggers. Substitute "southern"... its culture, not genes or geography. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to discover with whom I was confusing, or what other senators (and other elected federal officials) give that impression. --- "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." George Washington, November 4, 1796
On Thursday, June 19, 2003, at 12:39 PM, Major Variola (ret) wrote:
At 12:30 PM 6/19/03 -0500, John Washburn wrote:
Utah is Southern? I do not want directions from you. :-)
Well, it is southern w.r.t. certain states, but yeah, y'all got me.
But what I meant was, a jeebus-talking, flag-waving pinhead.
Sorry, wrong again. Hatch is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, LDS, aka Mormon. Not an actual Christian church. Details available with Google. Basically, Jesus is no more a divine figure in LDS than in Islam. In fact, LDS and Islam share a number of things in common with regard to the role of the various prophets and seers. I've known a bunch of Mormons, and "jeebus-talking" is not something they do much of. --Tim May "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain
Tim May wrote:
Sorry, wrong again. Hatch is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, LDS, aka Mormon. Not an actual Christian church. Details available with Google. Basically, Jesus is no more a divine figure in LDS than in Islam. In fact, LDS and Islam share a number of things in common with regard to the role of the various prophets and seers.
Sorry, but you've got your facts completely wrong here. Mormons very much consider themselves a Christian church; in fact, they consider their church to be the restoration of the church Christ originally established. Jesus is a divine figure in the LDS church. He's considered the literal son of God the Father; he's also considered the creator of the Earth, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, and a god in his own right.
On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 08:36:03AM -0500, Kevin S. Van Horn wrote:
Tim May wrote:
Sorry, wrong again. Hatch is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, LDS, aka Mormon. Not an actual Christian church. Details available with Google. Basically, Jesus is no more a divine figure in LDS than in Islam. In fact, LDS and Islam share a number of things in common with regard to the role of the various prophets and seers.
Sorry, but you've got your facts completely wrong here. Mormons very much consider themselves a Christian church; in fact, they consider their church to be the restoration of the church Christ originally established. Jesus is a divine figure in the LDS church. He's considered the literal son of God the Father; he's also considered the creator of the Earth, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, and a god in his own right.
No, Tim is right. The Mormons might consider themselves to be "christian", but are not recognized as such by any other denomination. In fact, they are billed as a "dangerous cult" just like the Moonies, etc. by most christians. If you really take a close look at Mormon, you'll also note that Lucifer is considered the brother of Jesus and of equal, or even more important standing. And even more interesting are their rites for initiation into the Temple (most Mormons never go thru this, only the elect) where the member, both male and female, is completely disrobed, their body washed (every square inch) by other people, then anointed, again, every inch, and painted with occultic symbols, and they are then dressed in a sacred undergarment which they must wear the rest of their lives. Even when bathing, at least one arm or leg has to stay in the sacred underwear. They swear alligence to Lucifer during the ceremony, among other things. Tim is also right about the similarities to Islam. Joseph Smith was a con artist who went to prison for scamming people with his "peep stone" which he put in his hat, stuck his face into the hat, and was then able to read instructions from the stone. Originally he was using it to "find" buried treasure, and this scam got him busted, later he used the same "peep stone" trick to "find" the "sacred writings", etc. Like Muhammed, he soon realized the necessity to have mulitiple wives. He also, and some of the leaders after him, got the holy word from god that told them that all the worldy goods of their non-mormon neighbors belonged to them, and they went out raiding farms and towns, which got them run out of New England, then run out of IL. which is how they ended up in Utah. Bizarre group. Read their history -- fascinating stuff. So is the history of Islam. A poor man, Muhammed married a rich widow old enough to be his mother, got visited by angels, started Islam, decided men needed multiple wives, etc. 8-) -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com
On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 05:25 AM, Harmon Seaver wrote:
On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 08:36:03AM -0500, Kevin S. Van Horn wrote:
Sorry, but you've got your facts completely wrong here. Mormons very much consider themselves a Christian church; in fact, they consider their church to be the restoration of the church Christ originally established. Jesus is a divine figure in the LDS church. He's considered the literal son of God the Father; he's also considered the creator of the Earth, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, and a god in his own right.
No, Tim is right. The Mormons might consider themselves to be "christian", but are not recognized as such by any other denomination. In fact, they are billed as a "dangerous cult" just like the Moonies, etc. by most christians.
Let me remind folks that I am areligious...I no more believe in a god or goddess or afertlife or supernatural things than I believe in the Easter Bunny. I view all religions as cults of magical belief. Having said this, all of the Mormons I have known have been unusually honest, forthright, and hard-working. I worked with a fair number of them at Intel, and they were solid contributors. And the Mormons are doing well financially, here in the U.S. and abroad. All of my Christian friends who are students of religion characterize LDS as non-Christian. Which suprised me when I first heard the claim, but I now see the point. LDS is fundamentally an occult belief system.
If you really take a close look at Mormon, you'll also note that Lucifer is considered the brother of Jesus and of equal, or even more important standing.
He was a hell of a lot more interesting than JC, that's for sure. I recommend "The Prophecy," the wonderful movie with Christopher Walken as the angel Gabriel.
Bizarre group. Read their history -- fascinating stuff. So is the history of Islam. A poor man, Muhammed married a rich widow old enough to be his mother, got visited by angels, started Islam, decided men needed multiple wives, etc.
Islam is interesting because of the self-consistency of a single vision written by Mohammed. I am astonished that one person could write that whole thing (not that I have read much of the Koran, but what I have looked at is self-consistent). I figure Mohammed had latent talents as a poet or writer and these came out during his desert cave stays, perhaps, one might speculate, assisted by various herbs and mushrooms. I once asked a Muslim rug merchant I knew about this. He was adamant that Mohammed did not write the Koran...he kept saying "Ha-breel!" Which, it took me a few seconds to figure out, is Arabic for the angel Gabriel, which I vaguely recollected was supposed to have come down into Mohammed's cave and dictated the word of Allah to Mohammed. As such beings and such deities are fanciful, I am more interested in the psychological state that allowed a 7th-century merchant to write such a book. --Tim May, Occupied America "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
Tim wrote:
Let me remind folks that I am areligious...I no more believe in a god or goddess or afertlife or supernatural things than I believe in the Easter Bunny. I view all religions as cults of magical belief.
There are two ways of modeling the Universe. One can build it from lots of copies of the null set, or one can take the undifferentiated whole, and subdivide it into countless fragments in equilibrium with each other in various complex ways. Religions are essentially collections of stories about the latter method of modeling, created for people who can't do the math, and who have never bothered to wonder why all the choirs of angels form such neat little arrays. God is the thing you have before you start chopping it up. God is the abstraction that has everything in the universe as a possible instance. Archangels are chunks of a coarse partition of God. We are chunks of a fine partition of God.
Having said this, all of the Mormons I have known have been unusually honest, forthright, and hard-working. I worked with a fair number of them at Intel, and they were solid contributors. And the Mormons are doing well financially, here in the U.S. and abroad.
Mormons make perfect employees. They are always bathed, well-dressed, hard-working, self-reliant, well-educated, respectful of your authority, and they hardly ever mention that after they die, they hope to rule over other planets in physical bodies, and have a wonderful sex life. Then again, they'll put their teenage children in a mental institution in a heartbeat for defying them, or acting gay. Mormons are the true Stepford citizen units. Perfect on the outside, dangerous on the inside.
He was a hell of a lot more interesting than JC, that's for sure. I recommend "The Prophecy," the wonderful movie with Christopher Walken as the angel Gabriel.
The Nephilim are a fun bunch.
As such beings and such deities are fanciful, I am more interested in the psychological state that allowed a 7th-century merchant to write such a book.
The whole universe is inside you, Grasshopper. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
participants (5)
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Eric Cordian -
Harmon Seaver -
Kevin S. Van Horn -
Major Variola (ret) -
Tim May