John Young writes, regarding Assassination Politics:
AP is a touchy topic for Cypherpunks, whoever they may be. It is likely the USA is attempting to link AP to Cypherpunks for prosecution, so not many will want to talk about the topic.
Cypherpunks pioneered the use of encryption and anonymity for many purposes, but one of them was precisely this: to allow discussion of forbidden subjects.
So my opinion is that AP is a lure set out by the authorities to entrap the unwary, Cypherpunks among them. I believe that Bell and Johnson have been, and are continuing to be, a part of that lure, whether witting or unwitting.
That's bullshit. Surely you can't deny that AP was conceived by Bell exactly as what it was claimed to be, a tool to be used against government agents who overstep their authority and violate the rights of American citizens. (And as an important consequence it would therefore encourage governments to behave legally and respectfully towards their citizens, as they should.) Bell certainly did not conceive of AP as a way of entrapping cypherpunks. He didn't even know about cypherpunks when he came up with the idea.
AP is highy suspect, and becoming more so as it gets additional promotion, not by whatever adherents it may have but by its opponents. I expect AP to be used to advance the anti-terrorism industry now booming.
Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt.
Total bullshit again. Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, but so do most other elements of the cypherpunk vision. Would you say that crypto anarchy, information black markets, and commerce among pseudonyms are "a joke"? These are just as hypothetical as AP at present. It's entirely possible that some form of anonymous cash will be developed in the next few years, and once that happens AP will be trivial to implement. It's far from a joke, it is a very real possibility. AP is part of the dark side of the cypherpunk dream and it must be faced rather than evaded. The real problem with AP is not that it would be illegal, because much of what cypherpunks call for is presently illegal. Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst. There are no checks and balances. It is the height of folly to suppose that AP would be used only against those whom cypherpunks themselves oppose, like corrupt government agents. AP could be used against anyone who has a high profile. If AP were implemented, there is no question but that Jim Bell would be one of the first targets! All those people who found himself on his list, along with their heirs and successors, would want revenge. Everyone involved with the assassinations would be anonymous except Bell himself, making him the most prominent target of their wrath. Other notable supporters of crypto anarchy would follow soon, such as cypherpunk founders May and Hughes. The people involved with the digital cash would be targets as well, and so on. Despite these unpleasant facts, once digital cash exists, AP will be inevitable, along with many other forms of anonymous murder-for-hire. Cypherpunks have discussed these possibilities from the very beginning. To pretend that AP is somehow outside of the scope of cypherpunk thinking, a hoax or joke perpetrated by outsiders as a lure, is just absurd. With crypto anarchy you have to take the bad with the good. What, then, is the solution to survival in a world of assassins at large? It is simple, and it is in fact the same as the solution to the problem of how to discuss AP in a world in which even mentioning it could get you arrested, the problem which led to John Young's dissembling above. Perhaps the alert reader will be able to conceive of the solution for himself.
Whatever promise AP has for its avowed purpose, so far it has helped to jail a couple of guys and smear a few more while boosting the careers of several alleged targets. Talking about AP in public is still going on, here and elsewhere. Disagreeing about it too. Take it seriously or as a joke, take your pick. Nothing in the essay proves it's serious or a joke. Its quality appears to be determined by the credulity of the reader. I like its jokey aspects more than the other. But that's my feeling about this forum too. The thrill continues, trying to figure out who is serious and how is joking and who is laying the traps. The more serious posts here are the best, but mattd is coming on swell for a standoff comic. True that not everyone likes the humor of political agitation, and prefer a somber aping of the pols and mils and edus flogging non-fictional aspirations to right what's wrong, delusional ravings presented as insight. Jim Bell would have made AP an underground comedy if he had hung out with the time-wasterists at MIT rather than with the techno-commercialists. But I think his techno-political potboiler succeeds by making a comical wrong turn into the pokey, not once but twice, and inspiring CJ to follow, and mattd, and surely more to come as the AP PR machine gains momentum. A lesson to be learned by the politico-religio-righteous.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> writes:
John Young writes, regarding Assassination Politics:
Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt.
Total bullshit again.
Yes, but the reason it's bullshit is that shooting messengers does no good. It leaves intact the originators of the message, all hundred- million of them. Tomorrow, the hundred million will be stumbling over each other trying to empower new messengers to replace those fallen. Who else but the messengers (politicians, bureaucrats, etc.) is going to collect the money to pay the Social Security, after all? Who else is going to halt the drug trade?
Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
Worse than the secret ballot? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQBVAwUBPBX4a/PsjZpmLV0BAQEhqgH/cURZ7LO9meHr8HGV/RArtsPY6oDoLrkq ICoKTRLunQrdcsYjgyDx464IXJW4Z/PK6qL9oHGuTikXmt0KX3TEhw== =AVcC -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 11 Dec 2001, D.Popkin wrote:
Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
Worse than the secret ballot?
AP *IS* a form of secret ballot. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> writes:
On 11 Dec 2001, D.Popkin wrote:
Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst.
Worse than the secret ballot?
AP *IS* a form of secret ballot.
Good point. So they're tarred with the same brush. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQBVAwUBPBYfffPsjZpmLV0BAQFVIQH/VJYpi23fRsmXYItNIfyh2KVj+33hx1au pZVlqp6qnlzgP5xtN9wGtXGwU2PaNp5jAWFnVO+BJsybUs/knSmzsA== =uEfi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 09:50:24PM +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Just keep in mind that AP is a joke among knowledgeable technologists for its unworkability, but a wonderful joke on those who believe it's anything more than a taunt. Total bullshit again. Sure, AP requires anonymous digital cash, but so do most other elements of the cypherpunk vision.
No, no. AP is funny because it's impracticeable. One does not find an assassin exclusively by tracing who paid him to kill. One can (and often does) find him because he makes a mistake in the act of commiting the crime. Which, if I'm reading my history right, is what's hampered the noisy proponents of AP up to this point already. The point is that Bell's theory does a really good job of sorting out the business end of assassination, but it does nothing for actually teaching people how to kill. More importantly, it doesn't teach people how to avoid getting caught. Killing one person, especially a public official, pisses a whole bunch of people off. Those people have a tendency to come find their buddy's killer. No kind of real or threatened assassination can weaken a government in which a majority of the governed people believe. It can only make it seem more righteous and be more strong. -- gabriel rosenkoetter gr@eclipsed.net [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, gabriel rosenkoetter wrote:
Killing one person, especially a public official, pisses a whole bunch of people off. Those people have a tendency to come find their buddy's killer.
No kind of real or threatened assassination can weaken a government in which a majority of the governed people believe. It can only make it seem more righteous and be more strong.
I'm glad somebody 'gets it'. -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
participants (5)
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D.Popkin
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gabriel rosenkoetter
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Jim Choate
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John Young
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Nomen Nescio