Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday
At 10:03 AM 7/21/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi wrote:
Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is very paranoid.
Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact to taunting.
(Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat).
This looks like a joke. If so, it is really hilarious, but otherwise sorry.
Unfortunately it's not.
So Adobe thugs will pour out of the building sprayng crowd with machine-gun fire ? Corporate commandos will make arrests and cart them to software sweatshops ?
What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public grounds should be afraid of ?
M.E. is too conservative. Our psych-history-simulations reveal that you'will make a point by using the specific term "kidnapping", as in, Adobe Kidnapped Dmitri or Adobe Kidnaps Fair Use. ....... "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error" - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson
----- Original Message ----- From: "Subcommander Bob" <bob@black.org> To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net> Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday Black Unicorn Scribed:
Adobe- owing to the kidnapping of its big wig some time ago- is very paranoid.
Please be aware and be cautious as they may be prone to overreact to taunting.
(Do not taunt happy-fun-acrobat).
Someone answered:
This looks like a joke. If so, it is really hilarious, but otherwise sorry.
I replied:
Unfortunately it's not.
At 10:03 AM 7/21/01 -0700, Morlock Elloi replied:
So Adobe thugs will pour out of the building sprayng crowd with machine-gun fire ? Corporate commandos will make arrests and cart them to software sweatshops ?
What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public grounds should be afraid of ?
Quite a lot actually. This is why I like most cypherpunks. They have the most charming naiveté about the real world. It's quaint. I see it most often in their propensity to argue to most obscure technical-legal points with the full expectation that a judge isn't just going to say "that's specious counselor, have any real arguments?" I love hearing things like: "Well if I just have the micromint transfer all its money to itself first then that's legally a transaction, right?" or "I'm not transferring the e-gold to the user, I'm transferring it to his key, so there are no taxes!" or "Sorry your honor, I used key splitting to put the key in 4 jurisdictions so I can't recover the critical financial data under subpoena. Now you have to send me home. Hee hee!" The second most frequent expression of this kind of sheltered thinking is in the political-societal belief that there is no such thing as "street justice" in the United States and that officers aren't prone to poke the odd protestor with a nightstick in any country except Mexico or India or the Middle East or some other far away and out of sight place. "But this is AMERICA!" or "But I'm an AMERICAN!" Good morning. How was your sleep? I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they have on the street is a good whack to opposing counsel's head and that about the most serious ramifications of this might be that the protestor gets off scott free after 48 hours in holding with the gang bangers. It's pretty easy to get arrested in a protest situation. Life is manifestly unfair to arrestees. You decide what you want to do about it. Adobe is a large and influential company in the Valley. It may very well be responsible for getting the Commissioner of Labor in California removed from office simply because they disagreed with his ruling on forced vacations for their employees. Adobe's co-founder is easily spooked and Adobe has had it's run-ins with violence before. This event is well publicized and Adobe knows its coming. Draw your own conclusions about how Adobe might prepare. What would you do in Adobe's place? (I know you are suddenly tempted to come up with a witty reply. It's a rhetorical question, smartass). Here is an article on the kidnapping of Adobe co-founder Chuck Geschke: http://www.losaltosonline.com/latc/arch/9742/Exclusiv/1adobe/1adobe.html An excerpt: It was supposed to be a normal day at the office for Adobe Systems president Charles "Chuck" Geschke when he pulled into the parking lot of his Mountain View headquarters on May 26, 1992. Instead, his kidnapping at gunpoint by two Arabic men began a five-day nightmare in which Geschke was blindfolded and unaware of his location. His frantic family, in the meantime, enlisted the help of the FBI in a search that was the biggest of its kind since the kidnapping of Patti Hearst. Chuck's rescue was triggered by daughter Kathy's drop-off of ransom money and her negotiations with the captors. The news of the kidnapping made headlines all over the world. The family, still, has not fully recovered from the emotional harm. [...] To this day, [Chuck] still has flashbacks when he drives into a parking lot void of cars or people. And he has replayed his capture dozens of times, both during and after captivity, questioning his decision to obey the armed stranger. The nightmares, which continue to this day, were just the start of a whole new deck of fears the family had to deal with once they returned to Los Altos after their month retreat. Chuck's insecurities about his safety invaded all aspects of his life. The 6-foot, 1-inch, 220-pound Chuck now scares easily. "I see someone walking or parking in front of the house and I try to notice if there is anything suspicious about it. I never, never had that feeling ever in my life before. I've always been a very open person, never felt any physical fear of any kind," he said. end excerpt. Following the kidnapping Adobe made such substantial changes to security that employees jokingly, and not so jokingly, refer to it as "Fortress Adobe" now. I think you're going to have to decide if it's a wise idea to provoke these people. Peaceful protest is a good thing. Still, be careful. Mr. Geschke and the FBI are awfully tight now.
M.E. is too conservative. Our psych-history-simulations reveal that you'will make a point by using the specific term "kidnapping", as in, Adobe Kidnapped Dmitri or Adobe Kidnaps Fair Use.
A clever and subtle tactic. Exactly what I would expect from the more clever cypherpunks. (Even more clever to suggest its use to others, rather than using it yourself). Please use it carefully. It might send entirely the WRONG message. Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully.
At 01:43 PM 7/21/2001 -0700, Black Unicorn wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Subcommander Bob" <bob@black.org> To: <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net> Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday
What exactly peaceful banner-carrying demonstrators on the public grounds should be afraid of ?
Quite a lot actually.
This is why I like most cypherpunks. They have the most charming naiveti about the real world. It's quaint. I see it most often in their propensity to argue to most obscure technical-legal points with the full expectation that a judge isn't just going to say "that's specious counselor, have any real arguments?" I love hearing things like: "Well if I just have the micromint transfer all its money to itself first then that's legally a transaction, right?" or "I'm not transferring the e-gold to the user, I'm transferring it to his key, so there are no taxes!" or "Sorry your honor, I used key splitting to put the key in 4 jurisdictions so I can't recover the critical financial data under subpoena. Now you have to send me home. Hee hee!"
The second most frequent expression of this kind of sheltered thinking is in the political-societal belief that there is no such thing as "street justice" in the United States and that officers aren't prone to poke the odd protestor with a nightstick in any country except Mexico or India or the Middle East or some other far away and out of sight place. "But this is AMERICA!" or "But I'm an AMERICAN!" Good morning. How was your sleep?
I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they have on the street is a good whack to opposing counsel's head and that about the most serious ramifications of this might be that the protestor gets off scott free after 48 hours in holding with the gang bangers.
It's pretty easy to get arrested in a protest situation. Life is manifestly unfair to arrestees. You decide what you want to do about it.
A lesson not lost of The Founders, many who paid with their lives and their fortunes even if they did keep their sacred honor. Even if you are non-violently demonstrating BU is correct that you still may pay a heavy price. You need to decide before you demonstrate: how important this issue you're protesting is, how far you're willing to take your protests and what you may be risking in doing so. Then make preparations accordingly. All Western countries fear losing the support of their middle class, tax paying, citizens. To the extent that the Vietnam demonstrations succeeded it was because they were able to elicit "police riots" in response to what many felt were mostly non-violent (if not legal) demonstrations and swing public opinion. Of course, the release of the Pentagon Papers, which credibly confirmed \what many of the demonstrators had been saying of U.S. goals and involvement in S.E. Asia, didn't hurt either. steve
On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:43:08PM -0700, Black Unicorn wrote:
Adobe's co-founder is easily spooked and Adobe has had it's run-ins with violence before. This event is well publicized and Adobe knows its coming. Draw your own conclusions about how Adobe might prepare. What would you do in Adobe's place? (I know you are suddenly tempted to come up with a witty reply. It's a rhetorical question, smartass).
All this may be true, but it fails to recognize that most geek-protests (and I have covered many) don't result in high turnouts. See this anti-DMCA protest, which drew eight marchers: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/7/dmca-protesters-1.html Perhaps 15 were marching in front of the Supreme Court when the CDA was being heard. Oh, this might be larger, and I suspect it will be. And it makes sense to consider Adobe's mindset. But the Black Bloc (or the Black Panthers) this isn't. -Declan
----- Original Message ----- From: "Declan McCullagh" <declan@well.com> To: "Black Unicorn" <unicorn@schloss.li> Cc: "Subcommander Bob" <bob@black.org>; <cypherpunks@cyberpass.net> Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Adobe's Teeth. (Was: Re: [free-sklyarov] Re: Rallies on Monday)
On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:43:08PM -0700, Black Unicorn wrote:
Adobe's co-founder is easily spooked and Adobe has had it's run-ins with violence before. This event is well publicized and Adobe knows its coming. Draw your own conclusions about how Adobe might prepare. What would you do in Adobe's place? (I know you are suddenly tempted to come up with a witty reply. It's a rhetorical question, smartass).
All this may be true, but it fails to recognize that most geek-protests (and I have covered many) don't result in high turnouts. See this anti-DMCA protest, which drew eight marchers: http://www.mccullagh.org/image/7/dmca-protesters-1.html
Perhaps 15 were marching in front of the Supreme Court when the CDA was being heard.
Is the glass half empty, half full or 100% in excess of optimum volume, Mr. McCullagh?
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote:
I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they have on the street is a good whack to opposing counsel's head and that about the most serious ramifications of this might be that the protestor gets off scott free after 48 hours in holding with the gang bangers.
True enough. It's easy to say things about policy when you don't have a personal interest. But don't forget that cypherpunks are doing a good job of implanting a 2nd Amendment, civil disobedience and personal morality positive views into anyone who comes by. It might well be that cops acting unconscionably will soon enough encounter deeply cypherpunkly offenders, who just blow the cop away if the going unjustifiably gets rough.
Adobe's co-founder is easily spooked and Adobe has had it's run-ins with violence before. This event is well publicized and Adobe knows its coming. Draw your own conclusions about how Adobe might prepare. What would you do in Adobe's place?
What they do, of course. That just means anyone opposed to their game had better prepare even better. How does one prepare for ideology driven hackers stealing one's intellectual assets? Guaranteeably anonymous slander, and inside rumour? Mass protests numbering in the tens of thousands? Snipers? A van-full of petroleum+nitrates parked outside one's office, or home, or one's children's school? Cleverly utilized discharges of nerve gas? I certainly do not advocate that sort of response, but that is what escalation is all about. It naturally happens when the going gets tough enough. Corporations better not escalate, or they will come up with something like the G8 protests, only with far less resources to combat the trouble.
Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully.
Not carefully. Wisely. Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy@iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front
On Sun, 22 Jul 2001, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
Exercise your right to free speech. Do it carefully.
Not carefully. Wisely.
And what pray tell is 'wisely'? -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001, Black Unicorn wrote:
I would be amused to see one of these cloistered techies in a real encounter with police, who recognize that the best legal argument they
The only serious encounter I would risk with anything, is by means of anonymized (including resistance to trace analysis) physical proxy. So the threshold is pretty high. Who do you think we are, marines?
participants (7)
-
Black Unicorn -
Declan McCullagh -
Eugene Leitl -
Jim Choate -
Sampo Syreeni -
Steve Schear -
Subcommander Bob