Oct 19, 2000 - 06:55 AM California Court Declines to Review Vehicle Forfeiture Law The Associated Press SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The state Supreme Court has declined to review a ruling allowing police to seize vehicles suspected of use in crimes such as drug dealing or soliciting a prostitute. Without comment, a majority of justices Wednesday decided not to hear the American Civil Liberties Unions challenge to Oaklands 1997 vehicle seizure law. Under the law, a car can be confiscated even if the crime suspect using the vehicle is acquitted, or the cars owner was unaware of the crime. The measure exceeds state and federal standards. The ACLU argued that cities looking to profit from seizures would enact similar measures. So far, Sacramento has put a comparable law on its books but San Francisco lawmakers shelved the idea last month, concluding it was unconstitutional. Since passing the "nuisance abatement" act, Oakland has collected, sold and kept the profits from 300 cars. The impetus "was really complaints from certain communities which were essentially drive-thru sex-and-drug bazaars. People were sick of having lines of cars in their streets with this activity going on," said Oakland Deputy City Attorney Pelayo Llamas. http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAWJXNBIEC.html
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 anonymous@openpgp.net wrote:
Oct 19, 2000 - 06:55 AM
California Court Declines to Review Vehicle Forfeiture Law The Associated Press
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The state Supreme Court has declined to review a ruling allowing police to seize vehicles suspected of use in crimes such as drug dealing or soliciting a prostitute.
Portland, Oregon has a similar law. In practice, they take your car only as long as it has resale value. (In other words, it is done for revenue and not for "punishment".) Speaking of governmental seizures... Oregon has a balot initiative to tighten down the seizure laws. They are trying to add in that the property can only be seized if the owner is convicted of something. Interesting to see who is lining up against this one. The first few arguments against the initiative are from the animal shelters claiming that is will harm animals! The rest are from various law enforcement agencies and the like upset because they will have not have this hidden source of funding for toys. alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
Note: I did not originate the title of this thread. I mention this because Certain Prosecutors have taken such things out of context and produced them in court documents as evidence that someone is planning to kill some judge, and as grounds for publishing the Social Security Numbers and home addresses of certain persons. I'd sue these criminals, except there would be no point. Hundreds of thousands in expenses, and in their rigged court rooms. Better to plot vengeance in other ways. At 3:06 PM -0400 10/19/00, Alan Olsen wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 anonymous@openpgp.net wrote:
Oct 19, 2000 - 06:55 AM
California Court Declines to Review Vehicle Forfeiture Law The Associated Press
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The state Supreme Court has declined to review a ruling allowing police to seize vehicles suspected of use in crimes such as drug dealing or soliciting a prostitute.
Portland, Oregon has a similar law. In practice, they take your car only as long as it has resale value. (In other words, it is done for revenue and not for "punishment".)
In Florida the Drug Army has seized million-dollar boats becaue a single marijuana roach (butt) was found in the seat cushions during a fishing expedition search. They sell these boats and exotic cars, or use them in their own operations. And they pocket some fraction of the cash they illegally seize. A couple of Mexicans were driving across the southern U.S. from Georgia to Texas. They were stopped in one of the common "shake down" stretches of highway. Their savings from a year's worth of labor on a farm were "seized." No charges filed, no drugs found (not that this would justify seizing their cash), no trial. They eventually got most of their money back after their employer in Georgia, a white woman, spent her own money travelling to Texas, hiring lawyers, calling reporters, and arguing their case. In thousands of "civil forfeiture" cases we never hear about, because nobody wrote stories about it, the narcs and corrupt deputies simply pocket the proceeds. Welcome to Amerika. As for the title of this thread, a lot more than some judges need to be dealt with. Some prosecutors, some Marshal's Service folks, some cops. Hundreds of thousands, overall. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, jim bell wrote:
Naturally, a chemical solution (pun not directly intended...but I'll take it anyway) becomes apparent. If the ultimate motivation of the car siezures is to sell them and keep the money, what would happen if somebody acquired a few ounces or gallons of PCB's (poly-chlorinated biphenyls; common in 20+year-old (non-electrolytic) capacitors), and sprayed them (only a very tiny amount per car should be necessary, maybe 1 milliliter or so?) into those siezed cars though a broken window (or injected through door seals). Naturally, it would be important to anonymously call the local newspaper or TV stations and report on what had occurred, possibly the EPA as well. That car would suddenly change from a $10,000 asset into possibly a $100,000 liability for the agency which siezed them..
Just a thought
A thought, however, requiring people to handle PCB's -- which are no fun whatsoever, heavily regulated, hard to acquire (albeit relatively easy to synthesize), and all-around poisonous. That's damaging more than just the criminals in this case. That's damaging the planet. Instead, consider the possibilities of putrescine -- it's easier to synthesize, totally harmless ecologically speaking, legal to own (and legal to spill on your *own* property prior to seizure) and while it doesn't actually make the car into a 100K liability, it does make it so that nobody except a scrap metal dealer would ever pay any money for it. Don't inhale anywhere nearby after you open the vial though; If you do, you *will* puke. The stuff *NEVER* comes out, either. Bear
----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Ray Dillinger <bear@sonic.net>
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, jim bell wrote:
Naturally, a chemical solution (pun not directly intended...but I'll take it anyway) becomes apparent. If the ultimate motivation of the car siezures is to sell them and keep the money, what would happen if somebody acquired a few ounces or gallons of PCB's (poly-chlorinated biphenyls; common in 20+year-old (non-electrolytic) capacitors), and sprayed them (only a very tiny amount per car should be necessary, maybe 1 milliliter or so?) into those siezed cars though a broken window (or injected through door seals). Naturally, it would be important to anonymously call the local newspaper or TV stations and report on what had occurred, possibly the EPA as well. That car would suddenly change from a $10,000 asset into possibly a $100,000 liability for the agency which siezed them..
Just a thought
A thought, however, requiring people to handle PCB's -- which are no fun whatsoever,
Sorta depends on your definition of fun, doesn't it? B^)
heavily regulated,
True: These days most or all industrial uses are banned.
hard to acquire
I beg to differ. Check the material I downloaded below. Acquiring PCB's requires little more than the will to do it. Believe me, I _know_. The following comes from the site: http://www.ohb.org/pcbs.htm#Why_did_the_EPA_ban (found by using altavista, searching for "polychlorinated biph*" AND "capacitor*" ----------------------------------------------- Where are PCBs found? PCBs were used mainly in electrical transformers and capacitors, heat transfer systems, and hydraulic systems. They were also used in inks and carbonless copy paper and for a variety of other purposes, but the EPA ban now prohibits almost all of these other uses. Nowadays, PCBs are found mostly in transformers and capacitors. These may be contained in industrial equipment (such as welding equipment), medical equipment (such as X-ray machines), and household appliances (such as refrigerators and microwave ovens). The ballasts of some fluorescent light fixtures contain PCBs. During normal operation of a fluorescent light, the PCBs are entirely enclosed, and you cannot be exposed to them. However, when the capacitor wears out, sometimes it may burn or break and leak PCBs. How can I tell whether a piece of equipment contains PCBs? Check for a manufacturer's label, which may give the date of manufacture and the trade name of the fluid. Some trade names that may refer to PCBs include Aroclor, Askarel, Eucarel, Pyranol, Dykanol, Clorphen, Clorinol, Chlorextol, Diaclor, Hyvol, Asbestol, Inerteen, Elemex, Saf-T-Kuhl, No-Flanol, Nepolin, EEC-18, and others. Equipment manufactured after 1979 usually does not contain PCBs. Most pre-1979 capacitors do contain PCBs, while many pre-1979 transformers do not. Transformers within buildings or vaults are more likely to contain PCBs. New equipment should be labeled "No PCBs." PCBs are clear, amber-colored, or dark oily liquids. They may have a faint smell like motor oil, and some contain chlorobenzenes which make them smell like mothballs. Fluorescent light ballasts may contain about an ounce of PCBs; a utility pole capacitor or transformer may contain much more. Usually what leaks from a burned-out light ballast is not PCBs but a black tarry material that is used to muffle noise from the capacitor. However, it is safest to assume that anything that leaks from a transformer, capacitor, or light ballast contains PCBs, unless there is a "No PCBs" label on the equipment.
-- At 05:21 PM 10/19/2000 -0400, jim bell wrote:
Naturally, a chemical solution (pun not directly intended...but I'll take it anyway) becomes apparent. If the ultimate motivation of the car siezures is to sell them and keep the money, what would happen if somebody acquired a few ounces or gallons of PCB's (poly-chlorinated biphenyls; common in 20+year-old (non-electrolytic) capacitors), and sprayed them (only a very tiny amount per car should be necessary, maybe 1 milliliter or so?) into those siezed cars though a broken window (or injected through door seals). Naturally, it would be important to anonymously call the local newspaper or TV stations and report on what had ccurred, possibly the EPA as well. That car would suddenly change from a $10,000 asset into possibly a $100,000 liability for the agency which siezed them..
Anti pollution laws do not apply to government or to government officials acting in the course of their duties. If the government spreads deadly pollutants everywhere, then the government is innocent, but all private businesses that somehow facilitated the action of the government, perhaps by supplying it with equipment, or by allowing it to confiscate the land which it polluted, or by having the pollution spread upon their property, are guilty. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG 9qO4qcXdxr+shE+kiE9FnXoVOzEWw4xTaj6N07Dn 4lSq/V9XWC9MFUUXegHjuC1rXKf0JoeoSaMQ7+4tO
At 6:47 PM -0400 10/19/00, Ray Dillinger wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, jim bell wrote:
Naturally, a chemical solution (pun not directly intended...but I'll take it anyway) becomes apparent. If the ultimate motivation of the car siezures is to sell them and keep the money, what would happen if somebody acquired a few ounces or gallons of PCB's (poly-chlorinated biphenyls; common in 20+year-old (non-electrolytic) capacitors), and sprayed them (only a very tiny amount per car should be necessary, maybe 1 milliliter or so?) into those siezed cars though a broken window (or injected through door seals). Naturally, it would be important to anonymously call the local newspaper or TV stations and report on what had occurred, possibly the EPA as well. That car would suddenly change from a $10,000 asset into possibly a $100,000 liability for the agency which siezed them..
Just a thought
A thought, however, requiring people to handle PCB's -- which are no fun whatsoever, heavily regulated, hard to acquire (albeit relatively easy to synthesize), and all-around poisonous. That's damaging more than just the criminals in this case. That's damaging the planet.
PCBs are as close as your nearest utility pole transformer. Are they as dangerous as reporters have led us to believe? My suspicion? No. --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>>
Note: I did not originate the title of this thread. I mention this because Certain Prosecutors have taken such things out of context and produced them in court documents as evidence that someone is planning to kill some judge, and as grounds for publishing the Social Security Numbers and home addresses of certain persons. I'd sue these criminals, except there would be no point. Hundreds of thousands in expenses, and in their rigged court rooms. Better to plot vengeance in other ways.
deletia
As for the title of this thread, a lot more than some judges need to be dealt with. Some prosecutors, some Marshal's Service folks, some cops. Hundreds of thousands, overall.
The population of Revolutionary France (1793) was about 25 million. The death toll from The Terror, as I vaguely recall from reading it years ago, was about 19,000. Or, about 0.075% of the population, which is actually quite small when you think about it. The population of the US today is about 260 million. An equivalent per-capita death rate today would be 200,000 people: This is, as I recall, substantially less than the number of people who die early each year due to either alcoholism or tobacco-related diseases. It's probably not coincidence that the selective removal of 200,000 today would likely "do the job", despite the vast difference in today's society and 18th century France. Jim Bell
My employer is running a deal right now in which we can wrap our car in ads in exchange for X shares of stock, strike price current price of the shares. Even if there's a modest $Y increase in share value, X*Y will amount to many times the cost of most cars. So what companies should do is try to get police agencies to seize such ad-wrapped cars, as long as they can guarantee the vehicles will be driven and not (gasp) repainted. :) -Declan On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:06:56PM -0400, Alan Olsen wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000 anonymous@openpgp.net wrote:
Oct 19, 2000 - 06:55 AM
California Court Declines to Review Vehicle Forfeiture Law The Associated Press
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The state Supreme Court has declined to review a ruling allowing police to seize vehicles suspected of use in crimes such as drug dealing or soliciting a prostitute.
Portland, Oregon has a similar law. In practice, they take your car only as long as it has resale value. (In other words, it is done for revenue and not for "punishment".)
Speaking of governmental seizures...
Oregon has a balot initiative to tighten down the seizure laws. They are trying to add in that the property can only be seized if the owner is convicted of something.
Interesting to see who is lining up against this one.
The first few arguments against the initiative are from the animal shelters claiming that is will harm animals! The rest are from various law enforcement agencies and the like upset because they will have not have this hidden source of funding for toys.
alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."
At 9:27 AM -0400 10/20/00, Declan McCullagh wrote:
My employer is running a deal right now in which we can wrap our car in ads in exchange for X shares of stock, strike price current price of the shares. Even if there's a modest $Y increase in share value, X*Y will amount to many times the cost of most cars.
Imagine the repercussions of a tobacco company doing this... (In America, for you non-Americans, many forms of speech are forbidden. Speech which adovactes cigarette smoking is illegal in many contexts. Likewise for many other examples.) I just noticed that a Las Vegas casino operator, Harrah's, has "voluntarily agreed" to restrict its advertising so that children and "those with gambling disorders" will not be exposed to the advertising. Hmmmhhh. [My take on this is that the state is exerting continuous pressure on many market actors.] --Tim May -- ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
Mr. May said:
PCBs are as close as your nearest utility pole transformer.
Are they as dangerous as reporters have led us to believe? My suspicion? No.
Just wait until the News Media realizes that everyone who ever died had also inhaled O2. "Breathing leads to dying, stop now!". -- A quote from Petro's Archives: ********************************************** "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech." --Dr. Kathleen Dixon, Director of Women s Studies, Bowling Green State University
At 02:27 AM 10/20/2000, Tim May wrote: ...
PCBs are as close as your nearest utility pole transformer.
Are they as dangerous as reporters have led us to believe? My suspicion? No. ... Granted, this thread is probably about as old and dead as it can get.
I've had an electronics engineer, a former professor of mine and someone who claims to have worked on the original cruise missiles, tell me that, and I'll paraphrase as close as I can get to a quote, "one drop on the tongue of a dog is enough to kill a man". From what he provided, these things tend to cause cancer, and the dirt underneath old transformers, should those transformers have become leaky, is probably adequately tainted, and already needs clean up anyway. Impound a few ounces of alleyway dirt with the car. Then you're doing the planet a Service. Boxing up preexisting contaminated waste. Good luck, Sean Roach
participants (9)
-
Alan Olsen -
anonymous＠openpgp.net -
Declan McCullagh -
James A.. Donald -
jim bell -
petro -
Ray Dillinger -
Sean Roach -
Tim May