current status of cypherpunks, tim may, etc. ??
I wasn't paying attention when the lne node went away, and was a bit lost in my CP mailing list subscription for a few months... I subscribed to minder, but it was a _joke_ in terms of spam and bounces and all sorts of lameness in my cypherpunks folder _and_ my inbox. Further, I noticed I was no longer seeing any posts by Tim May - I might have been missing others as well, but he was conspicuously absent. So, I have unsubbed from minder and subbed to al-qeada.net - hopefully they will be closer to LNEs level of anti-spam excellence ... questions: 1. any comments on this level of spam and bounces, etc., I saw from minder - does al-qeada use a more LNE-like processor ? 2. Was tim may being filtered from minder, or is he just gone now ? thanks. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Joe Schmoe <non_secure@yahoo.com> wrote:
1. any comments on this level of spam and bounces, etc., I saw from minder - does al-qeada use a more LNE-like processor ?
Well, as the list maintainer I see a lot of bounces &c, but (unless something is seriously wrong with my setup) no one else does.
2. Was tim may being filtered from minder, or is he just gone now ?
I talked to him a little bit after lne went down; he said he wasn't interested in posting to the list any more. Quite unfortunate, in my view. Apparently he's still to be found posting on various Usenet groups. RAH knows more about this than I do. -- Riad Wahby rsw@jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Riad S. Wahby wrote:
2. Was tim may being filtered from minder, or is he just gone now ?
I talked to him a little bit after lne went down; he said he wasn't interested in posting to the list any more. Quite unfortunate, in my view. Apparently he's still to be found posting on various Usenet groups.
Unfortunate? I don't know. Tim's gone a little whacko over the last few years, and it doesn't look like his meds are doing crap for him: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 01:59:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Details Magazine publishes outrageous anti-Asian, anti-gay feature Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 23:59:43 -0700 From: Tim May <timcmay@removethis.got.net> Newsgroups: ba.general,la.general,nyc.general,soc.culture.asian.american,scruz.general,misc.survivalism Message-ID: <090420042359439829%timcmay@removethis.got.net> In article <104f1ca7.0404092233.1321eae4@posting.google.com>, Whitney McNally <wm@whitneymcnally.com> wrote:
I decided to do something funny and hopefully constructive about the details magazine controversy.
www.whitneymcnally.com
"Nigger, or Thief?" Is there really a difference? Thirty years ago, even more, I was prepared to give the negro a chance. Now, so many years later, so many excuses later, so many crimes later, I say we ought to either give passage back to Biafra and Ruwanda and other hellholes for those negroes who request it, or charge those who remain for the benefits of white civilization we gave them over the past few hundred years. And for those who have been on welfare, or AFDC, or WICC, or any of the giveaway subsidies to the negro, they must pay back what they took from working people, with interest, or be sent up the chimneys. Their choice. The negro has stolen from the European for way too long. --Tim May
"J.A. Terranson" <measl@mfn.org> wrote:
Unfortunate? I don't know. Tim's gone a little whacko over the last few years, and it doesn't look like his meds are doing crap for him: [snip]
It's true, Tim does seem to harbor an awful lot of anger towards certain groups, but while I don't agree with it, he's entitled to his opinion. The part I find unfortunate is that, along with his less tactful points, gone are his insightful ones. -- Riad Wahby rsw@jfet.org MIT VI-2 M.Eng
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Riad S. Wahby wrote:
The part I find unfortunate is that, along with his less tactful points, gone are his insightful ones.
This is the point I was trying to make (by reposting his latest "insight"). We all have those ghosts we'd like to see dead. Hell, I've got more than most, and maybe even as many as Tim, but if there isn't - even occasionally - another thought being expressed that "Up the chimneys with X", what's the point of listening? CP is certianly less for the missing May. But the currently posting May isn't worth listening to. -- "How do you change anything, except stand in one place and scream and scream and scream and then make more people come and stand in that place and scream and scream and scream?" Sally Fields
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 3:37 AM -0400 4/11/04, Riad S. Wahby wrote:
Apparently he's still to be found posting on various Usenet groups. RAH knows more about this than I do.
Obviously, Tim was on usenet long before he, Eric Hughes and John Gilmore started this list on toad.com after the first physical cypherpunks meeting 11 years ago last fall. Because some spam-defense techniques require the absence of usable email addresses, and because Tim has changed his addresses more than once over the last few years, you can go on groups.google.com and just search for "Tim May" in the author field -- don't forget the quote marks -- and see everything he's posting now. He's usually in the local Bay Area groups, and on Misc.Survivalism, though I haven't looked in about a month or so. As we just saw in a previous forward from usenet, most of the stuff he posts there makes me cringe, like his later stuff here, but, obviously, Tim's as smart and as creative as he's ever been. Even though when I showed up here, 10 years ago sometime in May to learn how to do cash transactions on the internet, Tim regularly and thoroughly jumped up my ass about my various ideological impurities and deep flaws in my character :-) (it was ever thus, I got used to it, and I hopefully learned to give back as good as I got), there was, invariably, something useful in almost all of his posts here. This, in spite of, to me at least, the increasing preponderance of deliberately provocative cruft he trolled around here, presumably in boredom, just to piss people off. Obviously, though more civil, and, frankly, productive, this list isn't the same since Tim left, not the least because this list was, for all intents and purposes, his creation, by dint of the sheer amount of time he put into it, if nothing else. As most people here know, I've long been interested in influence and reputation, and I once introduced Tim at a Mac_Crypto conference in terms of the magnitude of his influence, which is, frankly, much more considerable than people really understand. Tim thanked me for a "nice introduction", and, while I was being quite cordial, this being one of the few times we got along, "nice" was pretty orthogonal to my point. Tim May, whether he likes it or not -- understands it completely or not -- has literally invented, discovered, a new form of emergent social order. More properly, in learning that property can be controlled by cryptography in a manner *independent* of biometric identity, he was the first person to understand that the control and market-auctioned transfer of property could be achieved without the need of the force-monopoly of the state. The result is something which is, by definition, anarchy. Tim called it crypto-anarchy, since it required the use of strong cryptography on public networks to happen, but I don't think even he understood just how far the idea could go. His concern was more immediate. Like freedom, privacy is an inherent good, and anything that maximizes both privacy and freedom maximizes the good in the world. All the structural possibilities that resulted were just gravy. It's probable that his hatred of the state came first, long before his discovery of cryptography as a means to that end, but the effect is the same whether, like me, the crypto changed his opinion of the state, or, as was probably Tim's case, his opinion of the state led to his discovery of crypto as a means to get what he wanted. One way or the other, Tim and other early cypherpunks really did discover a way to make physically real the yearnings of libertarians, anarcho-capitalists, and other free people throughout the ages, by using, for the first time in more than a thousand years, technology and markets instead of manifestos, politics, philosophy, or, in the case of libertarians, somehow-constrained government and monopolistic force. I think that this didn't happen fast enough for Tim, and he devolved to hoping for some disaster to force his new world into being, and failing even that, he began to advocate more, I suppose, "traditional", methods of getting what he wanted: those involving force, without regard, unfortunately, to reason, much less economics. It was upsetting, infuriating, to watch, but, after a while, we realized that Tim was, after all, a free man. He could do what he wanted with his time and resources, and it wasn't our right to tell him to do otherwise, no matter how negative our opinions were of his behavior. As for the more personally repellant of his beliefs, we have to remember that he advocated something that most of us have come around to over time, something that many anarchocapitalists have talked about before Tim May did, that discrimination in transactions and hiring of *any* kind is a *right* of free people in markets, foolish consequences or not, and that it's only wrong when governments force that discrimination onto everyone, like they do in Jim Crow, Nazi Anti-Jewry, or Apartheid laws. Tim's collapse from that rationally-derived belief in the economic necessity for freedom, including individual discrimination, into the language of "Aryanism", and the advocacy of mob-violence, (something that is guaranteed, paradoxically, to degenerate into state-controlled force in in almost all historical cases, speaking of chimneys), again paradoxically, only puts his original point into even starker relief. Personally, like his coming to cryptography because of his hate of the state, I think his now-overt racism emerges from his (*claimed*, remember; he's said that "Tim May" is a pseudonym more than once here ;-)) Virginia upbringing, and that his adoption of anarcho-capitalism as a political philosophy might have been the result of some inherent racism, but that's just armchair psycho-babble voodoo on my part. The point is, his opinions in that regard are now morally repellant, and that's a shame, because before he got to this point where his anger overtook his capacity to reason, he was, in fact, making sense. So, to me, at least, whatever Tim and company did before or after doesn't matter so much as what they did here on cypherpunks in the early days. Lots of people's lives (mine, for instance... :-)) auger-in after what others consider to be their most memorable and productive accomplishments. Even a man's *own* opinions of the events of his life change over time, so who knows what Tim thinks about his time here, and whether it was worth it or not. Nonetheless, as Phillip K. Dick said once, reality doesn't change when you change your mind. If it all works, if it has a basis in economic fact, that people in general get more stuff cheaper and live longer and happier by being completely free of *any* government in their lives, and they get to that point by using strong cryptography on public internetworks, Tim May may well be remembered for the rest of history as having discovered the substrate of a new society. Something, I believe, on the order of the advent of agriculture and cities, and lots of us here were around to watch the initial promulgation of those ideas, even if we were not around (in my case, at least) to witness their actual discovery. And, maybe, some of us will be around not just to *watch* it happen, but to *make* it happen as well. Without sending a "bunch of useless eaters" "up the chimneys", as Mr. May seems to fondly hope for, these days. Cheers, RAH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBQHmfPsPxH8jf3ohaEQJ78gCfeKTbsWbqcWS+ENaxpJx8HrJPduIAoOm7 vN3XsdF+59pwEA1z6EOyzC/3 =wVkf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
--- "Riad S. Wahby" <rsw@jfet.org> wrote:
view. Apparently he's still to be found posting on various Usenet groups. RAH knows more about this than I do.
That's the other question I had ... I keep hearing about alt.cypherpunks, but there is nothing there - regardless of whether I look through google groups or other news2web or news2mail translations, alt.cypherpunks is totally dead - maybe 1-2 posts per month, and most of them test posts or garbage, and this goes back at least for the last year... Is there some secret or alternate news feed that has the real list, or is alt.cyperpunks just dead ? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
participants (4)
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J.A. Terranson
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Joe Schmoe
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R. A. Hettinga
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Riad S. Wahby