[cypherpunky cryptobabble libertopians should take note!] Available at: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/loophole.php BESS's Secret LOOPHOLE (censorware vs. privacy & anonymity) Abstract: This report examines a secret category in N2H2's censorware, a product often sold under the name "BESS, The Internet Retriever". This category turns out to be for sites which must be uniformly prohibited, because they constitute a LOOPHOLE in the necessary control of censorware. The category contains sites which provide services of anonymity, privacy, language translation, humorous text transformations, even web page feature testing, and more. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html BESS's Secret LOOPHOLE: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/loophole.php
On Wednesday, August 15, 2001, at 04:34 PM, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
[cypherpunky cryptobabble libertopians should take note!]
Hit and run insults to our list, oh my! I have decremented his reputation counter by the standard amount, and have added his name to the Silicon Valley "don't hire this guy" data base. So long as he stays on the East Coast, shouldn't be a problem for him. --Tim May
At one point Seth was capable of sane arguments and discussions without insults. This was, of course, many years ago, and now he's just nutty and should not be taken particularly seriously. -Declan On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 04:55:09PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2001, at 04:34 PM, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
[cypherpunky cryptobabble libertopians should take note!]
Hit and run insults to our list, oh my!
I have decremented his reputation counter by the standard amount, and have added his name to the Silicon Valley "don't hire this guy" data base. So long as he stays on the East Coast, shouldn't be a problem for him.
--Tim May
On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 08:17:02PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
At one point Seth was capable of sane arguments and discussions without insults. This was, of course, many years ago, and now he's just nutty and should not be taken particularly seriously.
I'm sorry Declan, I just can't take the cypherpunks list seriously anymore. After you testified for Federal government prosecutors, helping to put members in jail - not once, but twice - and anyone still respected you, I just lost all ability to regard that zeitgeist as other than a joke. There was indeed a time I could deal with Liberbabble. That was before a certain journalist, who I helped a lot, did many things to raise my legal risks, and justified some of it in the name of Libertarianism (other parts were just his "character"). I said this to you at CFP 2001, and I'll say it again: This is not a game we're playing. People are going to jail. I'd be overjoyed if you didn't take me seriously. It's the backstabbing I worry about. I don't ever want to find you playing Federal Witness #1 against me too. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html BESS's Secret LOOPHOLE: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/loophole.php
On Wednesday, August 15, 2001, at 06:21 PM, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 08:17:02PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
At one point Seth was capable of sane arguments and discussions without insults. This was, of course, many years ago, and now he's just nutty and should not be taken particularly seriously.
I'm sorry Declan, I just can't take the cypherpunks list seriously anymore. After you testified for Federal government prosecutors, helping to put members in jail - not once, but twice - and anyone still respected you, I just lost all ability to regard that zeitgeist as other than a joke.
From what I know of the situations, based on journalistic reports (from reports _other_ than from Declan), Declan took the obvious and legal steps to limit his testimony to statements of the form: "Yes, I am a reporter for "Wired News."" "Yes, I wrote the story you are referring to." He was subpoenaed to testify, he and/or his employer hired lawyers to deal with the subpoena and to seek ways to state only things like the above, and, so far as I have ever heard, he did not offer "helpful" suggestions or speculations. By contrast, Jim Choate was visited by the FBI for one of the show trials and offered speculations that I (Tim) am a dangerous person with lots of guns and money. The court records show these depositions from Choate. No such malicious help came from Declan, at least none in court records. Declan has been to my house several times. (Choate has never been to my house and will never be welcome.) If he writes a story about me, or you, or anyone, and the court demands for evidentiary reasons that he confirm or deny that he authored a particular chunk of text, he would presumably do so. However, if FBI agents on a fishing expedition ask him for incriminating speculations, I assume he would tell them to leave. As for you, you are not to be taken seriously by anyone, narcs or others. --Tim May
Pot. Kettle. Chip. Shoulder. You boys are getting a little silly. MacN On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Tim May wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2001, at 06:21 PM, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 08:17:02PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
At one point Seth was capable of sane arguments and discussions without insults. This was, of course, many years ago, and now he's just nutty and should not be taken particularly seriously.
I'm sorry Declan, I just can't take the cypherpunks list seriously anymore. After you testified for Federal government prosecutors, helping to put members in jail - not once, but twice - and anyone still respected you, I just lost all ability to regard that zeitgeist as other than a joke.
From what I know of the situations, based on journalistic reports (from reports _other_ than from Declan), Declan took the obvious and legal steps to limit his testimony to statements of the form:
"Yes, I am a reporter for "Wired News.""
"Yes, I wrote the story you are referring to."
He was subpoenaed to testify, he and/or his employer hired lawyers to deal with the subpoena and to seek ways to state only things like the above, and, so far as I have ever heard, he did not offer "helpful" suggestions or speculations.
By contrast, Jim Choate was visited by the FBI for one of the show trials and offered speculations that I (Tim) am a dangerous person with lots of guns and money. The court records show these depositions from Choate. No such malicious help came from Declan, at least none in court records.
Declan has been to my house several times. (Choate has never been to my house and will never be welcome.)
If he writes a story about me, or you, or anyone, and the court demands for evidentiary reasons that he confirm or deny that he authored a particular chunk of text, he would presumably do so. However, if FBI agents on a fishing expedition ask him for incriminating speculations, I assume he would tell them to leave.
As for you, you are not to be taken seriously by anyone, narcs or others.
--Tim May
Mac, we've always been silly. Its part of our charm. Adam On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:53:49PM -0500, Mac Norton wrote: | Pot. Kettle. Chip. Shoulder. | You boys are getting a little silly. | MacN | | On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Tim May wrote: | | > On Wednesday, August 15, 2001, at 06:21 PM, Seth Finkelstein wrote: | > | > > On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 08:17:02PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: | > >> At one point Seth was capable of sane arguments and discussions | > >> without insults. This was, of course, many years ago, and now he's | > >> just nutty and should not be taken particularly seriously. | > > | > > I'm sorry Declan, I just can't take the cypherpunks list | > > seriously anymore. After you testified for Federal government | > > prosecutors, helping to put members in jail - not once, but twice - | > > and anyone still respected you, I just lost all ability to regard that | > > zeitgeist as other than a joke. | > > | > | > From what I know of the situations, based on journalistic reports (from | > reports _other_ than from Declan), Declan took the obvious and legal | > steps to limit his testimony to statements of the form: | > | > "Yes, I am a reporter for "Wired News."" | > | > "Yes, I wrote the story you are referring to." | > | > He was subpoenaed to testify, he and/or his employer hired lawyers to | > deal with the subpoena and to seek ways to state only things like the | > above, and, so far as I have ever heard, he did not offer "helpful" | > suggestions or speculations. | > | > By contrast, Jim Choate was visited by the FBI for one of the show | > trials and offered speculations that I (Tim) am a dangerous person with | > lots of guns and money. The court records show these depositions from | > Choate. No such malicious help came from Declan, at least none in court | > records. | > | > Declan has been to my house several times. (Choate has never been to my | > house and will never be welcome.) | > | > If he writes a story about me, or you, or anyone, and the court demands | > for evidentiary reasons that he confirm or deny that he authored a | > particular chunk of text, he would presumably do so. However, if FBI | > agents on a fishing expedition ask him for incriminating speculations, I | > assume he would tell them to leave. | > | > As for you, you are not to be taken seriously by anyone, narcs or others. | > | > | > --Tim May -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Tim May wrote:
By contrast, Jim Choate was visited by the FBI for one of the show trials and offered speculations that I (Tim) am a dangerous person with lots of guns and money. The court records show these depositions from Choate. No such malicious help came from Declan, at least none in court records.
Liar, check the archives. I never said anybody was dangerous. What I did say was that I felt the C-A-C-L philosophy was dangerous. I stand by that. I believe that were the C-A-C-L philosophy to take hold the results would make the death counts from Nazism and Communism in this century pail in comparison. As to you, the only thing I told them was you worked for Intel, made some money, retired, live out in the boonies with a bunch of guns, and talked a lot of crap. Stand by that too. -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage@ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 07:01:32PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
... Declan took the obvious and legal steps to limit his testimony to statements of the form:
"Yes, I am a reporter for "Wired News.""
"Yes, I wrote the story you are referring to."
"Yes, I affirm under oath that the article is true" Once he says that, it's basically equivalent to testifying to the contents of the article in court. Making such an affirmation is not inevitable. People can disown articles. This not to recommend such disowning. However, the prosecution is well aware of the risks that it can happen. But if the US was a police state, Declan would not be griping about his plane ticket as his biggest concern in such a situation. He certainly would not be welcomed back to gather information on people he might help put in jail in a future trial. I can't convey how ludicrous it seems to me. Declan is the Fed's best friend. That's not an insult, that's a fact. He's provided important evidence that helped obtain two convictions. He shows every sign of repeating the performance. And nobody even seems to notice. Everybody goes by what he posts, the politically correct (for here) liberpunk anarcrypt cyberbilge. Not what he *does*. It's utterly unreal. But hey, he's a Libertarian(-type), and I'm not. So don't take me seriously. I have my own legal risks to worry about. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html BESS's Secret LOOPHOLE: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/loophole.php P.S. Regarding Jim Choate's "speculations", as far as I know, you *do* have "lots of guns and money". Why aren't you also giving him a pass for restating what are presumably your own true statements? As far as being "a dangerous person", well, that depends who one thinks is your target.
On Wednesday, August 15, 2001, at 08:12 PM, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 07:01:32PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
... Declan took the obvious and legal steps to limit his testimony to statements of the form:
"Yes, I am a reporter for "Wired News.""
"Yes, I wrote the story you are referring to."
"Yes, I affirm under oath that the article is true"
"Objection. The witness cannot attest to the "truth" of the article." The cross-examiner may ask whether the witness _believes_ his article to be based on fact, but his opinion as to its truthfulness or not does not establish facts in a case. A reporters _tape recorded notes_ or _contemporaneous notes_ are more probative, which is a major reason some important cases have involved courts ordering reporters to produce their notes and reporters then refusing. Was Declan asked about the "truth" of the article? Did he testify with the words above? (Yes, I tried to find this quote with Google. Either the transcript hasn't been released, hasn't been posted, hasn't been Google, or that phrase was not used...even "the article is true" as a phrasal fragment.) Declan can tell us what he recalls of the proceedings. Has the transcript ever been released? Regardless, you seem to have some personal vendetta against DM. --Tim May
[regarding stool-pigeoning] [Tim May] >>> to limit his testimony to statements of the form: ^^^^^^^^^^^ [Seth Finkelstein] >> "Yes, I affirm under oath that the article is true" [Tim May]
Was Declan asked about the "truth" of the article? Did he testify with the words above?
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/dir.2001.03.05-2001.03.11/msg00323.html "The Government is not seeking any source material, ..." "The limited purpose of the subpoena is to have you review two of your published articles ... and have you verify that [Jim Bell] in fact told you those things." My understanding is that he did verify well enough for those needs. I followed your "form" in wording, I didn't think you meant exact quotes. Now, certainly, it's not that he wanted to do it, or he was happy to do it. But I really won't care how much he'll moan and groan and play the violin if he does things to help create a trial involving *me*.
Regardless, you seem to have some personal vendetta against DM.
Ahem. Regarding vendettas, may I point out that this thread has proceeded from both you and Declan flaming me for one mildly flippant remark about the philosophy of libercryptoanarpunkism? However, if you *ask* ... I think our mutual feeling are very evident, and it would be silly to deny them. In the past, Declan did much to raise my legal risks of a lawsuit, in retaliation for my not giving him confidential information. I am quite concerned he will continue this pattern, and it is one of my largest worries in doing activism now, of the type I just posted. I've supported Bennett Haselton of Peacefire in his charge of plagiarism against Declan McCullagh. Bennett's account fits with my own experience of Declan's character. Declan has obviously not been pleased with that. See the second Peacefire *press release* at http://peacefire.org/censorware/BAIR/wired-press-message.6-23-2000.txt I saw how contemptuously Declan treated the DeCSS programmers: "The general feeling has been that Mr McCullagh acted in an unprofessional manner regarding his article and in an immature manner when dealing with the feedback." [Matthew R. Pavlovich, the name might be familiar] Ref'ed in: http://legalminds.lp.findlaw.com/list/cyberia-l/msg27564.html There's plenty more. But hey, according to Declan, I'm deranged. So who to believe? Declan is a fine chanter of rants, while in contrast, I am Not A Libertarian. That should settle the issue right there. I want Declan as far away from me as possible regarding anything which could turn into a legal situation. Call that feeling whatever you wish. The difference between some flames on a rantfest mailing list, and being jailed, just doesn't compare. -- Seth Finkelstein Consulting Programmer sethf@sethf.com http://sethf.com http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/07/19/technology/circuits/19HACK.html BESS's Secret LOOPHOLE: http://sethf.com/anticensorware/bess/loophole.php
-- On 16 Aug 2001, at 8:28, Seth Fink wrote:
[regarding stool-pigeoning] "The Government is not seeking any source material, ..." "The limited purpose of the subpoena is to have you review two of your published articles ... and have you verify that [Jim Bell] in fact told you those things."
The government was not genuinely seeking any material. It was just trying to give any reporter who covered the matter a hard time. Which by an amazing coincidence happens to be exactly what you are doing. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG TosRjBx8GcUdAOxWxsL3t6DicXlFQo65b94hoqFQ 4GzCzb2DXJvW08xZDO5x/LNNAMpaiOwVsS4IF13Ji
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 08:28:42AM -0400, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
been pleased with that. See the second Peacefire *press release* at http://peacefire.org/censorware/BAIR/wired-press-message.6-23-2000.txt
Of course, the opposing view is here: http://www.well.com/~declan/bair/
I saw how contemptuously Declan treated the DeCSS programmers:
There's plenty more. But hey, according to Declan, I'm deranged. So who to believe? Declan is a fine chanter of rants, while in contrast, I am Not A Libertarian. That should settle the issue right there.
No, plenty of lefties think Seth is deranged as well. Some, like Michael Sims of Slashdot, have gone public with their thoughts. I suspect this will be my last post in this thread. Arguing with Net-loons on a crusade is usually not a very productive experience in general, and in this case in particular even more so. -Declan
At 11:01 AM -0400 8/14/01, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:01:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Finkelstein <sethf@sethf.com> To: freematt@coil.com Subject: BESS's Secret LOOPHOLE - censorware vs. privacy & anonymity
[All the cypherpunky cryptobabble liberanartopists should care!]
Seth, Sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner, but I was out of town. I really can't send this to Freematt's Alerts as I don't want to censor what you wrote, but on the other hand I don't want to explain to my readers the origin of your hostility for pro-freedom libertarians. I've said this before, but lets stick to fighting censorship and lets leave the petty insults and past net intrigue alone. I'm willing. Regards, Matt- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt@coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************
-- On 15 Aug 2001, at 23:12, Seth Finkelstein wrote:
I can't convey how ludicrous it seems to me. Declan is the Fed's best friend. That's not an insult, that's a fact.
Thats baloney. Declan has been routinely harassed by the feds.
He's provided important evidence that helped obtain two convictions.
Bullshit. They only called him in order to intimidate reporters from covering the trial. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG r/KEjYFJ8qd6sh4aNB/cT3smEFD3iLfOxedKC8SX 4HLEA5rF83RLJ8KGsjjyLNhBgEpEpFc8jRElwby5C
On Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 07:01:32PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
From what I know of the situations, based on journalistic reports (from reports _other_ than from Declan), Declan took the obvious and legal steps to limit his testimony to statements of the form:
"Yes, I am a reporter for "Wired News.""
"Yes, I wrote the story you are referring to."
He was subpoenaed to testify, he and/or his employer hired lawyers to deal with the subpoena and to seek ways to state only things like the above, and, so far as I have ever heard, he did not offer "helpful" suggestions or speculations.
That is correct. I refused to do anything except confirm I wrote the article (first I hired a lawyer tried to quash the subpoena, but the judge did not grant our motion). That's why AUSA London asked the judge to declare me a "hostile witness". My writeup is here: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01883.html Naturally I will not reveal conversations I have as part of my newsgathering role that are confidential, private, on background, off-the-record, etc. Because my job requires that I be on call 24 hours and many conversations can be potentially related to topics I cover, I believe it is prudent to take a broad view of what I consider to be protected from prosecutorial inquiries. I don't think the transcript is online. I've been planning to buy it, and I'll get around to it next month. Anyway, Seth is becoming increasingly deranged; I'm not sure it's worth taking him seriously even to write a few paragraphs in reply. -Declan
participants (8)
-
Adam Shostack -
Declan McCullagh -
jamesd＠echeque.com -
Jim Choate -
Mac Norton -
Matthew Gaylor -
Seth Finkelstein -
Tim May