Tim May wrote... "Of course, when this happens all those employed in these "sweatshops" in Bangladesh, Malaysia, etc. will be unemployed. What, do people think shutting down the garment factories means the workers will get jobs at Intel and Microsoft? Or that somehow their wages will be increased to economically-unsupported levels for their country/ Duh. I'll chortle as yuppies and GenXers may more for inferior clothing while millions in Bangladesh and Malaysia starve to death over this "save the poor people!" scam." No doubt if this movement gets big enough to basically become a religion (like everything in the US) then this will start to happen. But fixing the conditions at 3rd world sweatshops will have very little impact to the cost of those goods. What's being discussed are things like ensuring that toxic gasses are not being spewed into the workplace (China), or moving workers towards a living wage (Haiti), or workers actually getting paid for the agreed upon wages (New York City). Right now the issue of 3rd world sweatshops has very little to do with economics per se. The unfortunate thing, however, may be that international Marxist groups will make addressing these issues a priority (at least in terms of their rhetoric). And even though the Marxists will in the long run probably make conditions even worse, the failure to address these issues now may empower Marxists throughout certain parts of the world. Hell...if I found a local factory was regularly grinding up children in the machinery, I'd probably go and take up arms with them (or pay to have weapons drop-shipped to them). Of course, I'm thinking Sr Donald and other knee-jerkers will equate that with being a Marxist. But I do believe it is encumbant upon us capital-ists to address these issues before the system as a whole gets tossed out, at least for a while. -TD

From: Tim May <timcmay@got.net> To: cypherpunks@lne.com Subject: Re: Dead Body Theatre Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 14:22:11 -0700

On Sunday, July 27, 2003, at 11:20 AM, James A. Donald wrote:

...

This is the same moron marxism as expressed in the word "sweatshop": To a naive and ignorant socialist it seems that if each man selfishly pursues his own desire, the result will necessarily be chaos and hardship, that one person's plan will naturally harm those that are not part of it, hence such phrases and concepts as "sweatshop" which presuppose that one man producing a plan to create value and another man providing equipment to implement that plan, has somehow magically made the workers in a poor country worse off, that saving, investment and entrepeneurship is unproductive, that investment, particularly investment by rich people creating the means of production in poor countries, is a plot to swindle the poor, a scam, a transfer from poor to rich. \

The move to "boycott stores selling sweatshop products" is gathering steam, so to speak. Stores like The Gap, Old Navy, Target, etc. are making plans to stop buying from so-called sweatshops.

Of course, when this happens all those employed in these "sweatshops" in Bangladesh, Malaysia, etc. will be unemployed. What, do people think shutting down the garment factories means the workers will get jobs at Intel and Microsoft? Or that somehow their wages will be increased to economically-unsupported levels for their country/

Duh. I'll chortle as yuppies and GenXers may more for inferior clothing while millions in Bangladesh and Malaysia starve to death over this "save the poor people!" scam.

As for the standard of living issue, I _do_ think the standard of living has declined over the past 40 years, aside from some availability of high tech products and medical care. Most of my employed friends are working half again as many hours as my father worked, are spending twice as much time sitting in traffic, and are living in smaller houses than my parents and my family lived in. And they are paying several times the tax burden. If the wife works, which was rare in the 1950s and into the early 60s, and they have children, then they may be paying a further substantial hit on childcare and nannies.

I would not want interference to stop free transaction in jobs, but it's disingenuous to ignore the fact that many today are working two jobs, or very, very long hours, to maintain a house that is generally smaller than in years past.

(Yeah, there are are a lot of McMansions. But many engineers in their 30s are still living in crappy apartments. And working 50-hour weeks, at minimum, with hours per day spent sitting in traffic. And on call with cellphones and laptops. And taking work home. And checking their e-mail every night and weekend. And paying 50% or more of what they make in federal income taxes, state income taxes, passed-on property taxes, sales taxes, energy taxes, highway taxes, and Socialist Security taxes. And what they earn in investments, after paying taxes on income, is taxed a second time, even if the alleged investment gains are mostly due to monetary devaluation.)

You often let your intense hatred of Marxism blind you to the very horrific situation we now face.

--Tim May

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