At 03:33 PM 12/29/00 -0500, auto58194@hushmail.com wrote:

"James A. Donald" wrote:

...

He describes the california system as "deregulated", but the fact that it takes many years to get permission to build a power plant -- that it takes longer to get permits than to actually build one, is undoubtedly a contributing factor to the crisis.

Of course it is. With plenty of excuses to hand out, a deregulated industry will act more boldly.

Without interference from a save-the-"X" crowd, they'll actually be able to act.

If it's so hard to build power plants in California, what is the obsession with building them in California?

Oh, I dunno. Self-sufficiency, maybe? One for all, before all for one? Pull your weight, we'll help but goddamit pull your own goddamned weight?

Looking at the queue of plant requests within California they also seem to be obsessed with building them in highly populated areas.

Easy commute for the workers, and a large pool to draw workers from?

I suppose one has to consider the plight of the capitalist here.

What, because CA lacks foresight and has it's head up its ass, it has suddenly become a capitalist plight? Since when has CA been a paragon of capitalist virtue? It seems that, despite several big (read corporate) names being based there, they have been the source of many non-capitalist things.

Given that the ROI on a plant closer to demand is higher (less additional infrastructure such as transmission lines and substations) than one far away, it becomes a no-brainer which to build from a profit standpoint.

Another consideration, for building closer to where the demand is. These are self-evident considerations.

Considering power plants were competing with dot-coms for investment capital, it's no surprise that ROI on a plant needed to be made as high as possible to have any chance of being funded.

Another manifestation of myopia. Checked www.fuckedcompany.com lately?

Thinking about it that way, it shouldn't be too surprising the result is high-ROI plants get built where people don't want them but eventually accept them after a year or two's delay. The capital for the plant is just invested elsewhere during the delay, so the delay doesn't harm the capitalist.

Any delay in earnings, harms. Corporate earnings do more than line the pockets of a nameless, faceless board of directors somewhere. If that is allowed for, isn't this really just another example of how piglets want to have their cake and eat it too? CA'ans want electricity, but they don't want the powerplant (in their back yard), or the higher rates of a (potentially) volatile market? Just exactly how do you spell welfare, anyhow? S-U-B-S-I-D-I-E-S????

If anything, it helps as the delay just serves to let shortage warnings and emergency notices go out, lets prices go up, makes people worry about blackouts, and then the next plant can be built with an even higher ROI.

So in a perverse sort of way, the system works just fine. For the capitalist anyways.

Capitalists have been trying to build plants for years (the need for more ability to generate electricity was recognized a decade ago) and have been dissuaded by CA rules & regs (too much red tape and environmentalist wacko interference). Go wash out your mind with soap, you've been dallying with the dark side.

-- At 03:33 PM 12/29/2000 -0500, auto58194@hushmail.com wrote:

If it's so hard to build power plants in California, what is the obsession with building them in California?

Ask the regulators in other states. Most of the neighboring states have regulated monopolies, rather than a regulated market, which are effectively an arm of the government, in that the decision to build a plant is primarily made by the government. A Californian power company simply has no legal right to build a power plant in Oregon, because that would violate the monopoly authorized by the state of Oregon.

Looking at the queue of plant requests within California they also seem to be obsessed with building them in highly populated areas.

The endangered species act makes it impractical to build power plants in less developed areas. The process of getting approval would take over a generation. They would first have to get someplace out in the coutryside rezoned for industry, which would probably require an initiative, which cannot be passed until the next election.. Much faster to start off with a proposal to build a plant in an area already zoned for industry. The underlying cause of the power crisis is that the burdensome regulatory process means that power needs must be foreseen over a decade in advance, and California had an unexpected surge of growth. Because of this growth surge we would have had a crisis anyway, but the "deregulation" made the crisis worse than it would otherwise have been, and one of the ways it made the crisis worse than it would otherwise have been is that the lead time required to get regulatory approval to build a power plant appears to have increased rather than decreased. In fact of course, what we are seeing in California is not deregulation, but desocialization. Regulation has actually increased substantially. The former regulated monopoly, when it was acting as an arm of the state, had a fairly free hand to do whatever the state decided. The many genuinely private firms do not have a free hand to do what they decide.

I suppose one has to consider the plight of the capitalist here. Given that the ROI on a plant closer to demand is higher (less additional infrastructure such as transmission lines and substations) than one far away, it becomes a no-brainer which to build from a profit standpoint. Considering power plants were competing with dot-coms for investment capital, it's no surprise that ROI on a plant needed to be made as high as possible to have any chance of being funded.

Thinking about it that way, it shouldn't be too surprising the result is high-ROI plants get built where people don't want them but eventually accept them after a year or two's delay.

Of course if the evil capitalist had decided to build the plant further away, the eco freaks would be frothing with outrage about the plant destroying nature and the power lines destroying the migratory routes of animals. It takes many more years, perhaps generations, to get past the endangered species act, no matter how frivolous and absurd the objections, than it takes to build in areas already approved for industry. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG Hf6V42fFUl/mEuMDmC5imbVM0viim35lKKc0HwXg 4BTUMxiz4F3aoxvFnTF2rlCC5TetfzlzHioAhUUs4